Harm from adding grain to strike water rather than other way around?

[whahoppened]

I've done two all-grain 5gal batches using a big kettle with valve and torpedo screen as a mash/lauter tun. Right now I don't have another kettle or container that can be used to hold all the strike water I need, so I've just heated it in the kettle and quickly added and stirred in the grain.

I guess my efficiency has been a little low (69% and 71%), but this could probably be for a few reasons. My question is, what exactly is the supposed harm in adding grain to water instead of the water to grain as is generally recommended?

 

[usfmikeb]

Anyone that's doing BIAB is already doing it that way, so I don't see where that should be an issue...

 

[Airborneguy]

I always add the grain to the water. I pour the water into my mash tun, then mix the grain in with two pours, stirring in between. No negative effects and 73-75% eff with a single sparge.

 

[Yooper]

I always add the grain to the water. I pour the water into my mash tun, then mix the grain in with two pours, stirring in between. No negative effects and 73-75% eff with a single sparge.

Yes me too. I use a cooler for a MLT, so I preheat it with extra warm (180 degree) water and let it sit until it comes down to my strike temp and then stir in the grain.

I'm not sure why Palmer's book says to "always add the water to the grain, not the other way around". I can't think of any reason at all, except maybe to decrease doughballs.

 

[whahoppened]

Thanks for the feedback--I was scratching my head at the passing mention on p. 287 of How to Brew by John Palmer of the fact that, allegedly, "You want to add the water to the grain, not the other way around."

I guess this has something to do with fear of thermally "shocking" the enzymes?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the feedback--I was scratching my head at the passing mention on p. 287 of How to Brew by John Palmer of the fact that, allegedly, "You want to add the water to the grain, not the other way around."

I guess this has something to do with fear of thermally "shocking" the enzymes?

I honestly don't know, but I was wondering about that myself a while back. I even made a mental note to ask Palmer about it when I saw him. But we were drinking, and I guess I left my (mental) notes at home.

 

[Rev2010]

Being enzymes are not actual living organisms I also wondered about how they would be thermally "shocked". But I'm definitely no biochemist so what do I know. Just had me wondering as well.


Rev.

 

[whahoppened]

If I remember AP Bio at all, enzymes can be "denatured" by certain external stresses like heat, meaning they literally get bent out of shape and are less able or no longer able to do what they usually do.

 

[trent]

I always add grain to water. Get around 80% usually with fly sparge.

 

[smalliewader]

I only have a handful of ag batches under my belt, but I've been adding grains to the water. I've also been short on efficiency. Last night I finally hit my numbers spot on....the only thing I changed was doing a finer crush on the grains. From reading on here, that seems to be a big reason for our lower efficiency.

 

[shortyjacobs]

I always add grain to water too. Never had a problem, had efficiencies in the mid 80s, and never a doughball. Don't see any reason to do it otherwise.

 

[ajf]

Yes me too. I use a cooler for a MLT, so I preheat it with extra warm (180 degree) water and let it sit until it comes down to my strike temp and then stir in the grain.

I'm not sure why Palmer's book says to "always add the water to the grain, not the other way around". I can't think of any reason at all, except maybe to decrease doughballs.

Greg Noonan (New Brewing Lager Beers) states that gradually adding water to grain makes it easier to prevent dough balls and completely solubilizes the enzymes.
I'm not going to disagree with him, but I find it easier to add the grain to water, and then give my drinking arm a good workout by stirring like crazy for a few minutes. Yes, I do get dough balls initially, but they get eliminated during the mixing, and I have never sprained my drinking arm, while drinking after the dough in workout.

-a.

 

[Bobby_M]

The only reason I can think of not adding grain to water is if you're really slow about it. The temp of your strike water is built on the idea of the grain eventually pulling the mash down to your rest temp but it's based on all the grain being added to all the water. If you add 1/8th of your grain and stir it in, it's essentially denaturing. I guess it's conceivable that if you take long enough stirring say up to 50-60% of your grain, you could perhaps lose enzymatic power by the time the whole mash is homogenized. However, I think this is realistically a non issue.

 

[Exbeerienced]

The only reason I can think of not adding grain to water is if you're really slow about it. The temp of your strike water is built on the idea of the grain eventually pulling the mash down to your rest temp but it's based on all the grain being added to all the water. If you add 1/8th of your grain and stir it in, it's essentially denaturing. I guess it's conceivable that if you take long enough stirring say up to 50-60% of your grain, you could perhaps lose enzymatic power by the time the whole mash is homogenized. However, I think this is realistically a non issue.

That's what I was thinking. Say you have a 12 lb grain bill, and you add 70 degree grain to 170 degree water in four steps:

First 3 lb charge, mash sits at 165.
Second 3 lb charge, mash sits at 160.
Third 3 lb charge, mash sits at 155.
Fourth 3 lb charge, mash sits at 150.

You see how the grain sits in hot water initially, and the temperature works its way down with further grain additions?

Now, if adding water to grain, this happens:

First charge, mash sits at 90.
Second charge, mash sits at 110.
Third charge, mash sits at 130.
Fourth charge, mash sits at 150.

Now in this case, the temperature works its way up. So maybe the theory is that there's less chance of adversely affecting the grain enzymes?

 

[usfmikeb]

That's what I was thinking. Say you have a 12 lb grain bill, and you add 70 degree grain to 170 degree water in four steps:

First 3 lb charge, mash sits at 165.
Second 3 lb charge, mash sits at 160.
Third 3 lb charge, mash sits at 155.
Fourth 3 lb charge, mash sits at 150.

You see how the grain sits in hot water initially, and the temperature works its way down with further grain additions?

Now, if adding water to grain, this happens:

First charge, mash sits at 90.
Second charge, mash sits at 110.
Third charge, mash sits at 130.
Fourth charge, mash sits at 150.

Now in this case, the temperature works its way up. So maybe the theory is that there's less chance of adversely affecting the grain enzymes?

I think you're right, but this is where it works best for a BIAB brewer, because you only lose a few degrees at dough in. I usually target 3 degrees above whatever mash temp I'm using for the batch.

 

[Bobby_M]

Again, it would only be problematic if you started to dough in and got pulled away for 15 minutes. When I dough in with someone around, it's a pretty constant pour/stir operation and it's all in within 3 minutes. If I do it by myself, I basically just dump half in, stir for a minute and then dump the rest. Even then, we're talking about maybe 2 minutes of 165F exposure on half of the grain and then a quick ramp down to sac. rest. Don't forget that it takes a little time for the starch granules to gelatinize so the enzymes are barely exposed at all. That's my theory anyway.

 

[Airborneguy]

My situation is exactly like Bobby's. If my cousin is helping me (my cousin Bobby ironically), then its a constant stir and pour so I wouldn't even consider temps being a problem. When I do it alone, I do it really fast, with most of my stirring after the second pour of grain.