beren
Well-Known Member
Iirc I read it’s supposed to have some sourness to it?
Grodziskie/Gratzer Water Profile
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Never tried that one but I just might do that. I've made some good Kolsch beers with K-97, but if the Lallemand yeast is better, I'm in. Might be a good candidate for the Grodziskie.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Not at all. Ron Pattinson elaborated on this subject in details (sorry can't insert the link, I'm on the go right now) and stresses emphatically that "sour Grätzer" is nothing but a modern fad.
Tart yeast like K-97 is a flaw in Grätzer. US-05 and M54 are okayish but too much estery for the style. Among the dry options, Lalbrew Köln is the optimal choise and Gozdawa Alt is the ideal one.
faithie999
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Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Well, finally I've had the time to revisit Ron's blog. His blog is probably the most extensive bit of information on the style in a language other than Polish. Here's the articles I've been referring to: Grodziskie - I wish they just wouldn't bother and Why do I bother where Ron brings some bad news to the adherents of the influential and vocal "sour grodziskie" sect.
And here's all his blog entries relating to Grodziskie. Including some vintage gravity data, none of which, to my dismay, confirm speculations on the stronger Grätzer existing sometime in the old days of yore. Nothing really bad with that: I see no problem in brewing as strong a Grätzer as I like. Another thing, I can't claim my Grätzerbocks to be recreations of a historical style. Big deal!
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mashpaddled
Well-Known Member
Well, finally I've had the time to revisit Ron's blog. His blog is probably the most extensive bit of information on the style in a language other than Polish. Here's the articles I've been referring to: Grodziskie - I wish they just wouldn't bother and Why do I bother where Ron brings some bad news to the adherents of the influential and vocal "sour grodziskie" sect.
And here's all his blog entries relating to Grodziskie. Including some vintage gravity data, none of which, to my dismay, confirm speculations on the stronger Grätzer existing sometime in the old days of yore. Nothing really bad with that: I see no problem in brewing as strong a Grätzer as I like. Another thing, I can't claim my Grätzerbocks to be recreations of a historical style. Big deal!
This is a pretty good example of why I am a critic of his writing. He dismisses the idea that there could be sour versions by making a sweeping generalization that hops kill LAB. It's the sort of sweeping generalization he criticizes others for making that he has no shortage of in his own writings. It is not particularly difficult to sour a 30 IBU beer. That's usually what I target for my sour beers.
It's not hard to imagine that some breweries would have less than ideal brewing or packaging conditions that may have resulted in a house culture of LAB or wild yeast that commonly infected the beers produced in the brewery. You can find craft breweries today with the same kind of problems. If the discussion goes back into more historical times, it's even more likely that some breweries would have developed LAB or acid-producing wild yeast in their culture or in the brewery.
It's also not hard to imagine a 2-3% ABV beer coming across as a little tart with no infection or intentional souring. Those super low ABV beers don't have much sweetness to combat the ph drop during fermentation. If the brewing water yields a lower ph or the brewery modified the water causing a lower ph, that could be another explanation.
I'm just out here taking the other side of the debate. I don't believe grodziskie is a sour beer or should be thought of in modern production techniques as a sour beer.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
^ That's the main thing.
Grätzer, being a very light style (and no evidences have been found yet it's ever been otherwise), definitely wasn't a particularly sweet beer. Moreover, its acidity levels probably may have had variations throughout the years and batches. Nevertheless there are no sufficient historical data that allow to classify it in the cohort of sour beers.
Pattinson fights the emerging trend to make Grätzer an "obligatory" soured style, up to including the souring feature into the style definitions. Which trend grounds entirely on personal tastes and misconceptions of particular modern brewers and not on documented sources or on contemporary industrial standards. Which is a deeply flawed approach to any "historical recreation".
mashpaddled
Well-Known Member
There's certainly those people out there who think every historical style is necessarily sour or brett-y. That's simply not true. For the vast majority of at least European beer history that we know to date, there was way more effort made to brew and consume beers quickly to avoid souring. Unless there is credible evidence that beers were intentionally aged to produce brett or sour character, it is far better to assume either would be considered undesirable.
Well, finally I've had the time to revisit Ron's blog. His blog is probably the most extensive bit of information on the style in a language other than Polish. Here's the articles I've been referring to: Grodziskie - I wish they just wouldn't bother and Why do I bother where Ron brings some bad news to the adherents of the influential and vocal "sour grodziskie" sect.
And here's all his blog entries relating to Grodziskie. Including some vintage gravity data, none of which, to my dismay, confirm speculations on the stronger Grätzer existing sometime in the old days of yore. Nothing really bad with that: I see no problem in brewing as strong a Grätzer as I like. Another thing, I can't claim my Grätzerbocks to be recreations of a historical style. Big deal!
Thanks for posting those. As I'm planning to brew another one soon, I have a bit of light reading.
Here’s my most recent iteration, for a ~2.75-gallon batch:
3.9 lbs. white wheat malt
0.75 lbs. Sugar Creek oak-smoked wheat
2 g Marynka (9.2%) @ 60
4 g each Lubelski, Sybilla, Nationalniy @ 5
Lallemand Koln
1.037 OG/1.005 FG/4.2%
50/10/25/90/95 Ca/Mg/Na/Cl/SO4
Very happy with it, though the next batch I’ll probably up the bittering by a factor of 1.5-2.
Late hop additions probably aren’t authentic, nor is the use of relatively new varieties. The aroma hops are all high-farnesene, though, and the combination works for me. I’ve done Grodziskie with 100% Saaz and 100% Lubelski, but I think I’m on to something good with this mix.
Note that the smoke level works because the Sugar Creek malt is so strong. If I ever had to go back to the Weyermann, I’d use it at 100%.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
No worries, late hop additions are fully authentic for Grodziskie. Though just tiny late additions, far from how much you choose to add.
What I calculated from a Polish industrial guideline, one of the prescribed hopping regimens was 19 IBUs at 120 mins, 3 IBUs at 30 mins and 1/3 weight of the second addition at hopback. There was also another canonical bittering scheme upping the bitterness up to 33IBU, but I currently don't have my calculation at hand.
The hop choise doesn't seem to stray far from the original too. All your hops are of the noble Saazer ancestry, no fruit salads, no catpiss. The only caveat, at these late hopping levels you were risking to get a harsh lingering bitterness from Marynka and especially from Nacionalny, which are pretty cohumulone-rich (that is rough-bitter) hops, so aren't the perfect candidates for late hopping. But if you're saying you're happy with the beer and would even double the bitterness up, then disregard my caveat.
Also, don't be afraid to "oversmoke" your Grätzer. 100% and even 200% of Weyermann Smoked Wheat is far from enough to emulate the authentic level of smokiness. Thus say the Poles who've tried the real thing 40 years ago.
What I calculated from a Polish industrial guideline, one of the prescribed hopping regimens was 19 IBUs at 120 mins, 3 IBUs at 30 mins and 1/3 weight of the second addition at hopback. There was also another canonical bittering scheme upping the bitterness up to 33IBU, but I currently don't have my calculation at hand.
The hop choise doesn't seem to stray far from the original too. All your hops are of the noble Saazer ancestry, no fruit salads, no catpiss. The only caveat, at these late hopping levels you were risking to get a harsh lingering bitterness from Marynka and especially from Nacionalny, which are pretty cohumulone-rich (that is rough-bitter) hops, so aren't the perfect candidates for late hopping. But if you're saying you're happy with the beer and would even double the bitterness up, then disregard my caveat.
Also, don't be afraid to "oversmoke" your Grätzer. 100% and even 200% of Weyermann Smoked Wheat is far from enough to emulate the authentic level of smokiness. Thus say the Poles who've tried the real thing 40 years ago.
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My understanding of cohumulone and rough bitterness is that this is long-held conventional wisdom that has not been borne out in recent studies.
In any case I’ve been pretty happy with Marynka. This may be mostly because it smells great coming out of the package; I certainly haven’t done a side-by-side with something like Magnum.
In any case I’ve been pretty happy with Marynka. This may be mostly because it smells great coming out of the package; I certainly haven’t done a side-by-side with something like Magnum.
I have used 100% Weyermann Oak Smoked Wheat Malt and the smokiness was quite pleasant. (Surprised me, as I was hesitant to use 100%.)
Please explaing how one can use more, as in the 200% mentioned here.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
In my experience, with 100% Weyermann Eichenrauchweizenmalz I never reach the desired level of smokiness. Well, a whiff of smoke is present but it's so faint, almost non-existent. Pleasant, but not true to the style.
When I was exploring Grodziskie threads on Polish brewing forums (I speak Polish, which helped me greatly in researching the subject of Grätzer) I learned that the Grodzisk brewery traditionally used custom-made oak-smoked malt which was significantly higher in phenolic ppm than any modern commercialy available substitutes from Weyermann or Viking. People who drank the beer when it was commercially produced in the 1980s confirmed its firmly (not faintly) smoky character. The consensus was it's impossible to recreate the authentic level of smokiness with the available malts, so to recreate a truly faithful version you need to smoke your own.
I have no idea how smoky Sugar Creek malt is, about which AlexKay says it's "so strong". The only thing is certain: to brew an authentic Grätzer you need a malt much higher in phenolic ppm than that from Weyermann. Use 100% of the smokiest malt you can get, and you'll never go wrong with that.
It's like with Chateau Peated Malt, you know. At only 5 ppm phenolics, it just disappears in your wort leaving no traceable flavour impact. To brew a decent peat-smoked beer you need something no less than 45 ppm from Simpsons (I made a Kveik once with Simpsons 82ppm Peated Malt at 84% of the grist, and loved the beer). Unfortunately, no data available on phenolic ppm levels from Weyermann or Viking.
When I was exploring Grodziskie threads on Polish brewing forums (I speak Polish, which helped me greatly in researching the subject of Grätzer) I learned that the Grodzisk brewery traditionally used custom-made oak-smoked malt which was significantly higher in phenolic ppm than any modern commercialy available substitutes from Weyermann or Viking. People who drank the beer when it was commercially produced in the 1980s confirmed its firmly (not faintly) smoky character. The consensus was it's impossible to recreate the authentic level of smokiness with the available malts, so to recreate a truly faithful version you need to smoke your own.
I have no idea how smoky Sugar Creek malt is, about which AlexKay says it's "so strong". The only thing is certain: to brew an authentic Grätzer you need a malt much higher in phenolic ppm than that from Weyermann. Use 100% of the smokiest malt you can get, and you'll never go wrong with that.
LOL, that's simple. Saying "200%" I mean if the current phenolic content of Weyermann Eichenrauchweizenmalz was multiplied by two, even then it won't be enough to recreate an authentic Grätzer.
It's like with Chateau Peated Malt, you know. At only 5 ppm phenolics, it just disappears in your wort leaving no traceable flavour impact. To brew a decent peat-smoked beer you need something no less than 45 ppm from Simpsons (I made a Kveik once with Simpsons 82ppm Peated Malt at 84% of the grist, and loved the beer). Unfortunately, no data available on phenolic ppm levels from Weyermann or Viking.
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Thanks.
I have done 100% peat test brew before.
There's still plenty of that available for sampling.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Your 100% peat which you don't like, or my 84% peat which I do like, are just our private experiments. No traditional beer is brewed with peated malt.
Grätzer is an old established style, and it used to be brewed from 100% malt much smokier than what we buy now.
That's the fact that needs to be taken into account when we are discussing recreating the style.
Nothing, of course, prevents us from brewing stronger of darker or sour or fruited or less smoky Grätzer. It might be a delicious beer in its own right but it won't be a recreation. Which is not a big deal either.
Grätzer is an old established style, and it used to be brewed from 100% malt much smokier than what we buy now.
That's the fact that needs to be taken into account when we are discussing recreating the style.
Nothing, of course, prevents us from brewing stronger of darker or sour or fruited or less smoky Grätzer. It might be a delicious beer in its own right but it won't be a recreation. Which is not a big deal either.
I see that Viking makes an oak-smoked wheat malt. Anyone brewed with that, and how does it compare with Weyermann, as to its smokiness?
The Grodziskie I brewed was with 100% Weyermann. The beer had a pleasant, but not strong, smoke aroma and flavor.
The Grodziskie I brewed was with 100% Weyermann. The beer had a pleasant, but not strong, smoke aroma and flavor.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Haven't had an opportunity to try it, unfortunately.
As far as I can conclude from others' conversations, it barely differs from Weyermann.
I'm brewing a Grätzer today.
No experiments this time, just replicating the tried and true canonical recipe.
Got some rare ingredients: Polish yeast (the coveted Gozdawa Old German Ale which I think is ideal for Grätzer) and Polish Saazer (called Żatecki in this case). In the grain department, however, Weyermann is all that's available, so I'll have to be content with an undersmoked Grodzisz.
(The last word is a short affectionate term for Grodziskie in Polish, pronounced like "GRO-jeesh").
As far as I can conclude from others' conversations, it barely differs from Weyermann.
I'm brewing a Grätzer today.
No experiments this time, just replicating the tried and true canonical recipe.
Got some rare ingredients: Polish yeast (the coveted Gozdawa Old German Ale which I think is ideal for Grätzer) and Polish Saazer (called Żatecki in this case). In the grain department, however, Weyermann is all that's available, so I'll have to be content with an undersmoked Grodzisz.
(The last word is a short affectionate term for Grodziskie in Polish, pronounced like "GRO-jeesh").
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Where Weyermann's specifies color as 2-2.7, Viking suggest only that the color will be < 10. Using oak from Poland, so I think that it will be worth a try. MoreBeer has it on hand, and I now have a bag on order.
MoreBeer's listing shows 4.3L max, which is about 10 on the EBC scale. Still darker than Weyermann.
Let us know how it works out.
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At least I find that the two brands look different enough. I am unable to differentiate them by their aroma.
Image taken in full afternoon sunlight.
Image taken in full afternoon sunlight.
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monkeymath
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This post made me smile
In fact I recommended the yeast earlier in this thread and you said you hadn't tried it yet.Well, I'm glad to hear that you also enjoyed it!
Short anecdote about my experience with the style: Of all the ~100 beers I've brewed, the highest praise that any of them has ever gotten was from a friend that was just blown away by the Grodziskie (like most people, he had never had anything like it; but unlike the majority of my friends, he just fell in love with it). I'll be visiting him in a couple of weeks, and I'm really bummed I cannot make and bring him a fresh batch of Grodziskie, as I am moving to a new apartment just prior to that.
But I'm pretty sure Grodziskie is going to be the second batch I brew in the new apartment. The first batch has to be a wet hop beer with hops grown at another friend's garden.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Yes, I was remembering your suggestion, both when I was buying the yeast and brewing with it.
Thanks for recommending this yeast!
Gozdawa's OGA-9 seems to be a better alternative to all other dry German Ale yeasts: it isn't as tart as K-97, it's less estery than M54, it's less finicky about pitch rate, lagtime and temps than Lalbrew Koelsch. That's why I think it's the ideal option for a good Grätzer (not for an Altbier though, where I prefer a tiny bit of peachy esters from Mangrove Jack's or Lalbrew versions).
Thanks for recommending this yeast!
Gozdawa's OGA-9 seems to be a better alternative to all other dry German Ale yeasts: it isn't as tart as K-97, it's less estery than M54, it's less finicky about pitch rate, lagtime and temps than Lalbrew Koelsch. That's why I think it's the ideal option for a good Grätzer (not for an Altbier though, where I prefer a tiny bit of peachy esters from Mangrove Jack's or Lalbrew versions).
beren
Well-Known Member
Thanks for locating that. I almost went for 1BBL myself until I hit the shipping fee.
beren
Well-Known Member
Oh god, how bad is it? I didn't even look. Maybe I can get my sister in law to bring some back on a flight from Poland :-D
mashpaddled
Well-Known Member
Have you tried smoking wheat malt yourself?
I started brewing these beers before the Weyermann product was available as that was my only option. I've never found their product to be remotely close to the level of smokiness I get. Even with malted wheat it can be smoked as long as the temperature stays low enough to preserve all the enzymes.
beren
Well-Known Member
https://www.facebook.com/realbrewersyeast/Anyone close? Maybe can make a house call in the winter :-D
Cripes, how heavy is a package with 1BBL dose of yeast, maybe a pound or two? 2nd day air usually runs $20-25 for small parcels in the lower 48. I know UPS uses a Byzantine chart of zones and such, so maybe cost is highly zone-dependent. I checked for my location (MN), and it was $65 shipping.
Think I'll brew a "sorta close" version with a 4 buck pack of Koln.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
If I only had a technical possibility, I would.
I hate the fact that however thoroughly I follow the original water, mashing, hopping and fermenting guidelines, I'm still limited to a substandard and underperforming main ingredient, the WM malt.
Unfortunately, smoking my own is unavailable to me.
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Here's what the Sugar Creek Grodziskie malt looks like, next to regular malted white wheat.
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