Green and I know it. And my cider shows it. :)

[onewomanarmy]

This is going to be a long post, so I appreciate anyone who can make it to the end.

I've been trying to get into cider making. Got a Craft A Brew kit last (2014) Christmas. Never had a chance to get it started because I wanted to learn more about the process before jumping in. Right before THIS Christmas (2015), I found myself with a gallon of Costco apple cider (no preservatives) and needing space in the fridge - remembered my cider kit and decided that if I kept waiting I’d never get started - so just went with it.

I knew the yeast was not fresh, but went ahead by following the instructions with the kit. I had some bubbles, and foamy top for a bit, but never really active. Let it go and since then I’ve been doing a lot of reading. That sat for slightly under a month, probably been at least two weeks since seeing any action. I had read enough to be confused, but was under the impression that the yeast had consumed most all of the sugar and there would be no harm in letting it sit.

Since then, I’ve learned a lot more. I now have a hydrometer and several other “tools”. I just started a “real” batch and would like some opinions and thoughts. I used a local packaged cider, flash pasteurized, no additives. Sterilized everything using StarSan. I let my cider get closer to room temp, added to carboy and added pectic enzyme (½ tsp) and malic acid (slightly less than ¼ tsp) and then let it sit for an hour (per directions on pectic enzyme bottle). I measured my SG at 1.060.

While the pectic enzyme was doing it's thing, I let ¼ can of FAJC thaw and then added it to the carboy as well as ½ tsp of yeast nutrient (I think this was less than I should have added). After adding the FAJC, I did use the small end of a plastic spoon to mix the must a bit. I wanted to mix the FAJC in so I could get a new SG reading. I didn’t want to stir it too much though and introduce too much oxygen to the mix.

I then (hopefully) rehydrated 1 gram of Nottingham Danstar yeast. I’m afraid the water may have been too warm though, I had it in my head that I was supposed to use between 85-95 degrees. I didn’t realize till after the fact that I had done this. I also added a bit of my must to my rehydrated yeast because I was afraid that it wouldn’t all pour into the carboy. Then airlocked and stuck it in our basement where it's maybe 65 degrees.

If anyone sees anything glaringly wrong with my process, I’d love to know what I should have done. There are a lot of little questions that come up that I wasn’t sure about - should I let my cider get to room temp before starting? Should I mix the must after adding any of the additives (I know it's not recommended after adding yeast)? Should I see a difference in gravity after adding 3oz of FAJC to my must? (I didn’t, but I don’t think I have a very good “test tube” to test with - it’s very narrow.) When do I add the yeast nutrient? Did I ruin my yeast in my rehydration process? I tell ya, if questions were cash, I'd be rich.

Anyway, after getting this started, I racked the first batch into a second carboy. I’ve not added anything to this and am hoping it will clear a bit. I tasted it and it’s pretty dry, as I expected, and I could smell and taste the alcohol. So my old yeast did something in there. I tried to get a hydrometer reading and believe I’m at 1.000. I didn’t have a hydrometer when I started this, so I have no idea where I started. I assume that means there’s no easy way to determine ABV.

I know I need to backsweeten now. I’m open to suggestions as to what’s the best way to do that at this point. I’ve decided to forego trying to carb this one, though that’s my goal later on. I’ve read all 125 pages of Pappers’ stove top pasteurizing thread and plan to go that direction on upcoming batches. For now, I'd just like to get a decent flavor.

Whew. If anyone made it this far, you're a patient, patient reader. And I really appreciate any comments or criticisms.

 

[CMcPherson]

Wow... that is one hell of a first post! :rockin:

I'm new myself and would love to help with some of the info that I can.
I'm a little dizzy trying to sort out your questions though.
If you can condense your questions, maybe we can help.

 

[Crash21]

Well, I only have a year of experience with cider but here goes with my experience...
I have never "rehydrated" any yeast. I have used EC1118 and Mangrove Jack's M02 Cider yeast and it has worked fine just dumping it in.
I also have not let the pectic enzyme sit for an hour.
Also, did you add the FAJC "before" fermentation?
FAJC is used to get some of the apple taste back into the cider as the alcohol tends to strip some of the apple flavor away. It will come back with time, but the FAJC is the quicker way to get it back.
Oxygen before fermentation is good
Oxygen after fermentation is bad
Here is the way I do it and it is simple and has yielded good results..
Clean everything, put cider (juice, if you prefer) yeast, nutrient and pectic enzyme in a carboy at room temp..Airlock it and wait.
I generally give it a month and rack it..
Add 1 can of FAJC to 1 gallon of cider and back under airlock for another month.
Batch carb and bottle.
Enjoy
There is so much info here that new cider makers are bombarded with stuff when it really is simple to make an end product that is quite good.
Once you get to the point where you can make a product you are happy with consistently then you can start adding more steps.
Good luck and I hope this helps.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

This is going to be a long post, so I appreciate anyone who can make it to the end.

I've been trying to get into cider making. Got a Craft A Brew kit last (2014) Christmas. Never had a chance to get it started because I wanted to learn more about the process before jumping in. Right before THIS Christmas (2015), I found myself with a gallon of Costco apple cider (no preservatives) and needing space in the fridge - remembered my cider kit and decided that if I kept waiting I’d never get started - so just went with it.

I knew the yeast was not fresh, but went ahead by following the instructions with the kit. I had some bubbles, and foamy top for a bit, but never really active. Let it go and since then I’ve been doing a lot of reading. That sat for slightly under a month, probably been at least two weeks since seeing any action. I had read enough to be confused, but was under the impression that the yeast had consumed most all of the sugar and there would be no harm in letting it sit.

Since then, I’ve learned a lot more. I now have a hydrometer and several other “tools”. I just started a “real” batch and would like some opinions and thoughts. I used a local packaged cider, flash pasteurized, no additives. Sterilized everything using StarSan. I let my cider get closer to room temp, added to carboy and added pectic enzyme (½ tsp) and malic acid (slightly less than ¼ tsp) and then let it sit for an hour (per directions on pectic enzyme bottle). I measured my SG at 1.060.

While the pectic enzyme was doing it's thing, I let ¼ can of FAJC thaw and then added it to the carboy as well as ½ tsp of yeast nutrient (I think this was less than I should have added). After adding the FAJC, I did use the small end of a plastic spoon to mix the must a bit. I wanted to mix the FAJC in so I could get a new SG reading. I didn’t want to stir it too much though and introduce too much oxygen to the mix.

I then (hopefully) rehydrated 1 gram of Nottingham Danstar yeast. I’m afraid the water may have been too warm though, I had it in my head that I was supposed to use between 85-95 degrees. I didn’t realize till after the fact that I had done this. I also added a bit of my must to my rehydrated yeast because I was afraid that it wouldn’t all pour into the carboy. Then airlocked and stuck it in our basement where it's maybe 65 degrees.

If anyone sees anything glaringly wrong with my process, I’d love to know what I should have done. There are a lot of little questions that come up that I wasn’t sure about - should I let my cider get to room temp before starting? Should I mix the must after adding any of the additives (I know it's not recommended after adding yeast)? Should I see a difference in gravity after adding 3oz of FAJC to my must? (I didn’t, but I don’t think I have a very good “test tube” to test with - it’s very narrow.) When do I add the yeast nutrient? Did I ruin my yeast in my rehydration process? I tell ya, if questions were cash, I'd be rich.

Anyway, after getting this started, I racked the first batch into a second carboy. I’ve not added anything to this and am hoping it will clear a bit. I tasted it and it’s pretty dry, as I expected, and I could smell and taste the alcohol. So my old yeast did something in there. I tried to get a hydrometer reading and believe I’m at 1.000. I didn’t have a hydrometer when I started this, so I have no idea where I started. I assume that means there’s no easy way to determine ABV.

I know I need to backsweeten now. I’m open to suggestions as to what’s the best way to do that at this point. I’ve decided to forego trying to carb this one, though that’s my goal later on. I’ve read all 125 pages of Pappers’ stove top pasteurizing thread and plan to go that direction on upcoming batches. For now, I'd just like to get a decent flavor.

Whew. If anyone made it this far, you're a patient, patient reader. And I really appreciate any comments or criticisms.

Sounds like you're on your way to a tasty cider. FYI: you don't have to backsweeten if you don't want to. Also, you don't have to pasteurize if you don't want to, I don't do either & my cider carbs up just fine, just prime & bottle like you would for beer. Also, you might want to let it age a couple of months to a year before drinking, it'll taste better that way, but again, you don't have to do so.
Regards, GF.

 

[madscientist451]

Using big box store apple juice and frozen concentrate to make cider is like using Welch's grape juice to make wine. You can call it cider (or wine), but the results are going to be disappointing. Crap in=crap out. Get some decent fresh juice (cider) from your local orchard next fall. Just my 2cents, that and $5-6 will buy a gallon of decent cider to start with.

 

[onewomanarmy]

Haha, CMcPherson, looking back on it - it was one hell of a first post. That came from lots of reading and trying not to be jumping on here to ask every little question - apparently that worked until I exploded.

I guess my first question is - is my cider dead? I've seen very little action out of it after getting it started on Sunday. It is really cool where I have it placed, about 61, but I fear trying to rehydrate my yeast as directed on the package may have been a bad idea. Crash21, I think I'm going to try it your way next time.

There is floating stuff in there - and a few bubbles around the edges - but I don't see any bubbling through the airlock. I'll see if I can post a photo.

MadScientist451, I started with a nice cider from a local orchard (with this batch), I just used the FAJC to add a little more sweetness and apple flavor. Or I was hoping it would anyway. I little more sugar for the yeasties to digest.

Thanks for the responses - Crash21, I didn't realize that the apple flavor would come back with time - thanks for that tidbit.

Gratus Fermentatio, sounds like what you are saying is, you can almost do it anyway you want.

 

[CMcPherson]

It doesn't look dead to me.
I'm way too new to be telling you what needs/should be done but:
Rehydrating in 85-95° water is not a problem.
I only have 6 batches under my belt but here is what I do:
I like to use a yeast starter but it's not really needed. Rehydrating is easy.
I add my pectin and then rack into a fermentation bucket 48 hours later leaving behind the schmutz.
Bring juice to 1.065 minimum.
I've been using cane sugar but want to try corn sugar and honey soon.
Sulfite according to must PH (1/2 dose if using wild yeast).
Pitch yeast (if using packaged yeast).
One of my current batches is waiting on natural fermentation. Once it loses 1/3 of sugar, I will add WL English Cider yeast to finish with.
I like to use a bucket for primary so that I can stir the heck out of it for the first few days to get rid of CO2 and add O2.
When that settles down, I rack multiple times (sulfiting every other racking, according to PH, to block oxidation) until it drops to 1.010 (personal taste) and cold crash.
Multiple rackings help slow down fermentation and helps stall before dry (depends on what yeast that you are using).

I used nutrients on one batch and it screamed to dry in 4 days!!
I won't be using nutrients anymore.
Then I stabilize with Sulfite/Sorbate and put it away for aging.
Once I get my keg system setup, I will be able to carbonate.
Please take all of this with a grain of salt because I'm still figuring out my system and I may tweak it before I settle on a method.

 

[Crash21]

Your welcome.
Everyone here has their ways of doing things and their own ideas of what their cider should taste like.
Keep It Simple has been my motto through the learning process.
A couple of things to keep in mind:
Adding sugar before fermentation does NOT yield a sweeter cider. You just create more alcohol..more alcohol=less apple flavor.
Most store bought juice comes in around 1.05 SG. Yes some are higher but it generally falls in that area which will give you around 6% ABV. It will retain some apple flavor at that ABV.
The apple flavor will come back albeit it isn't so much the apple flavor returning as it is the alcohol mellowing out over time.

Cider is highly individual. You aren't making it for your neighbor you are making it for yourself. So just make something that YOU enjoy sitting down with.

Of course these are just my opinions and the way I like to make my cider. I'm no expert and there are plenty of people here who know way more than I do about the process.
Good luck.

 

[SomersetRedstreak]

Hi, and Welcome!

Your photo looks good to me!
Just make sure you top it up to the neck with more AJ if you just do a primary fermentation.
The same goes if you rack it off the lees to a secondary vessel. Top it up to the neck to ensure there minimal headspace.
Good luck with it.

 

[CMcPherson]

Adding sugar before fermentation does NOT yield a sweeter cider. You just create more alcohol..more alcohol=less apple flavor.

I have been practicing stalling my fermentation at around 1.010-1.015 for a naturally semi-sweet cider. For this reason I like to bump it up to 1.065 in order to keep my ABV above 6%.
Same exact thing as the spread of 1.050 to 1.000 from what my very limited experience tells me.

The same goes if you rack it off the lees to a secondary vessel. Top it up to the neck to ensure there minimal headspace.

Wouldn't this just add more sugar and continue fermentation?

 

[SomersetRedstreak]

Cider that is fermented to completion, (full dryness), will always eat up any fermentable sugars within the tolerance of your chosen yeast. That is unless you halt fermentation with either chemicals and/or temperature.
I can't comment any further as it is not my department.
I ALWAYS just let my ciders ferment right out, wether I'm using an added yeast or the natural yeasts (in season).
In Somerset, UK we tend to like our cider dry, and chunky with tannins. But I understand and appreciate the variation of tastes in the U.S.

 

[Crash21]

I have been practicing stalling my fermentation at around 1.010-1.015 for a naturally semi-sweet cider. For this reason I like to bump it up to 1.065 in order to keep my ABV above 6%.
Same exact thing as the spread of 1.050 to 1.000 from what my very limited experience tells me.

It can be difficult to stop fermentation at a target FG. Without cold crashing or pasteurizing the yeast will continue to consume all of the sugar.
For a new cider maker this can be especially difficult. Stove-top pasteurizing can create a whole new set of problems and cold crashing isn't a guarantee that fermentation will be stopped.
An aggressive yeast such as EC1118 is very difficult to slow down much less stop.

 

[CMcPherson]

I'm trying to stick with yeasts known for cold crashing.