Grain vs. Extract cost at your LHBS

[55x11]

this probably has been addressed at lengths in one of the Grain vs. Extract flamewars, and I am not trying to start a new.

But I was going through my old extract recipes and costs, and once you strip the cost of yeast, hops and specialty grains, it is remarkable to see a factor of 3-4 or so in cost savings for base grains from going to all-grain.

I wonder if it is just my LHBS, or if it is consistent across the country?

My LHBS has mostly DME, and it's $8 for 1-lb bag, and $18-20 for 3-lb bag (or $14 for 3.33 lb can of LME). I realize you can probably find cheaper LME online, but I want to compare apples to apples, using LHBS prices.

For base grain, I pay $1 per lb for US 2-row (or $40 for 50-lbs but let's leave bulk purchases out of it).

So for a typical brew calling for, say, 9 lbs of DME, would run me - at my LHBS, about 18*3= $54 just in "base" prices. Maybe $42 if I use LME.
My first imperial stout (~10% ABV, 14+ lbs of extract) and 8% ABV "robust" porter cost me over $70, each in "base extract" prices - never mind additions of roasted malts, or yeast, hops etc.

If substituted for all-grain, the 9-lb DME recipe will probably become more like 12-lb of US 2-row, which means $12 cost, compared to $42-54 for extract.

And that high-gravity RIS recipe would be around $18-$20, instead of $70+. So easily a factor of 3-4 savings - specialty malts, hops and yeast are of course extra and not affected by grain/extract considerations.

Even if you include all other costs of ingredients, it is remarkable that some of my first extract beers cost me about $1.2-1.6 or more per bottle ($88 for 5-gallon batch of RIS), while now, especially with harvesting yeast and buying hops in bulk, it can often be as low as $0.25-0.40 per bottle ($11-$18 for grains).

What do the numbers look like at your LHBS?

 

[Vandulus]

Wow, that's quite a price differential! At my LHBS a 3 lb bag of DME runs $13-15 and grains are $1.60 per lb. For a 5 gallon partial batch I usually pay around $30 for DME and specialty malt. If I were to go all grain, I'd be looking at $20-25 per batch. For me the time savings in doing partial is worth the few extra bucks.

 

[bruteforce]

I get my bulk grains at $.70 a pound. 3# bag of DME runs maybe $14

 

[GuitsBoy]

Yeah, LHBS commands quite the premium around here too. 60+ bucks a batch is just insanity. At lest full kits are usually closer to 45-50. Still 5 to 10 bucks over an online purchase. Going AG has dropped the majority of my brews into the 25-30 dollar range per 5gal batch. And it's even cheaper if I wash and save my yeast. Granted, I'm only saving 50 bucks per brew day, but working an extra 3-4 hours, so maybe the joke's on me.

 

[beernutz]

That is a pretty good per pound price for grain for 1 pound sizes OP. I typically buy Weyermann Pilsner Malt in 55# bags at my LHBS for $68 (including 10% tax) which comes out to $1.24 per pound. I can buy Rahr pale malt there in 50# sacks for just under $51 OTD which is still over $1/pound. OTOH, the DME prices you quote from your LHBS seem high compared to what I usually pay for it for starters.

Yesterday for the first time I can remember in a long time I went through Beersmith and calculated the actually cost of my last 4 10 gallon batches which were Saison ($43), IPL ($44), Helles bock ($38), and German Pils ($38) for everything except whatever the natural gas I used cost for each batch. The cost was lower for the last two primarily because I was repitching saved yeast.

 

[d_boosh]

My store is very small, basically a guy who runs a print shop and brews so he sells equipment / grains. Even with his smaller size I did a brown ale with almost 13lb grain bill, 3oz hops, WLP yeast, a pound of priming sugar cuz I was out, and a bag of 144 caps for just over $40 out the door including 6% tax.

That was also UK base malts which are a tad more expensive... I think $0.20/lb more

 

[55x11]

Wow, that's quite a price differential! At my LHBS a 3 lb bag of DME runs $13-15 and grains are $1.60 per lb. For a 5 gallon partial batch I usually pay around $30 for DME and specialty malt. If I were to go all grain, I'd be looking at $20-25 per batch. For me the time savings in doing partial is worth the few extra bucks.

Wow, that's quite a smaller difference! I don't blame you for going partial, saves a ton of time for sure.

However, in terms of "base" malt differences, you pay $4.33-$5 for DME vs. $1.60 for grains. That's still a ratio of 2.7-3.1.
Even knocking off 25% for efficiency, it is about a factor of 2.0-2.3 for base cost ratio - the total cost ratio is much smaller of course once you add specialty grains and yeast/hops.

Something I didn't appreciate before, somehow.

 

[chickypad]

$8 a lb for DME?! Wow. I only use it for starters but it's $4.50 a lb or 3 lb for $12.99 at the LHBS (which happens to be morebeer). Base grains per the lb run $1.25-2.00 so I agree at least you're getting it at a good price there, though in bulk I can get 2 row for $36 a sack and $62-65 for continental and English base malts.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, Breiss or Munton DME runs ~$15 for 3# here, and a fifty pound sack of generic 'Murrican two row goes for around $40.

Convenience has its price...

Cheers!

 

[Calder]

Your ratio of 9 lbs DME vs 12 lbs grain is way off unless you get 100% mash efficiency. That said, I think your costs are ridiculious.

My LHBS sells 33 lbs packs of LME fot $60, or $2 per lb. Base grains are about $1.50 per lb. Very little difference in price for the final product.

Bulk grains at my LHBS are $1.10, so I buy on-line for about $0.95 (delivered).

I save with grain, but not too much. I enjoy using grain, and think I get a better product.

I reuse yeast and buy hops in bulk. The cost of my average beer runs a little less than 30 cents.

 

[Beernik]

When I was extract brewing, I want to say my average beers were about $48 for 5 gallons because I remember it being about $1 per 12oz bottle.

My latest 9.5 gallon AG brew cost about $45.

Current DME to grain cost at my LHBS: $4/lb for DME. The most expensive base malt is Belgain Pale at $2/lb. Neither are bulk purchasing pricing.

 

[55x11]

Your ratio of 9 lbs DME vs 12 lbs grain is way off unless you get 100% mash efficiency. That said, I think your costs are ridiculious.
.

You are right, I should have said 9 lbs LME = 12 lbs of grain (or so, assuming 75% mash efficiency - they both have 36 points and the same yield).
DME is 20% more "concentrated" than LME, so 9 lbs of DME is actually ~ 15lbs of grain at 75% efficiency, and one needs to get to 90% efficiency to get it to be 12 lbs of grain.

My LHBS LME/DME costs are ridiculous. But I like the grain prices.

 

[MindenMan]

I don't remember what the prices used to be, but the difference between partial mash and all grain was huge. I could almost brew two AG batches for the price of one partial mash batch, so off to AG land I went. I believe the biggest savings was actually my harvesting yeast; that was $8.00 or so I didn't spend every time I brewed like I did when I was a new brewer.

 

[Qhrumphf]

At my LHBS, DME is ~$14 for a 3lb bag (I only buy 3lb bags for my starters, it's more than $5 by the pound), and LME is ~$12.50-14.50 for 3.3 lbs depending on the brand. All works out to ~$4-5 per pound. Base malts are ~$1.80-2.30 by the pound, but go down by ~45% across the board when buying in bulk.

So yes, all grain is cheaper than extract for me, even just buying by the pound. But it's buying in bulk where the real savings kick in. Buying grains and hops in bulk, and repitching yeast, and even my biggest beers are rarely more than $20, and some of my session beers are $8-10 for 5.5 gallons (off the top of my head, would have to check the math, it could even be lower for some beers)

 

[Mer-man]

. . . Granted, I'm only saving 50 bucks per brew day, but working an extra 3-4 hours, so maybe the joke's on me.

I think once it becomes work, you should apply for a business license. This is a hobby, so it will naturally be a money pit. :fro:

 

[55x11]

I think once it becomes work, you should apply for a business license. This is a hobby, so it will naturally be a money pit. :fro:

that's exactly my feeling. Purely from financial perspective, all-grain brewing, or even extract brewing makes no sense at all - unless you don't value your labor/time at all. You can just buy commercial beer.

 

[WaltG]

My LHBS sells 2-row at $1.19/lb or $47/ 50lb

 

[C-Rider]

:You guys "over there" are so LUCKY when it comes to brewing beer. As for your weather you can keep it. LOL But back on topic, here on O`ahu we have one LHBS:
LME=$3.50/LB
DME=$7.99/LB
2 Row=$1.70/LB
Every other grain is $3.00/LB
Dry Yeast=$4.50 (avg)
Liquid Yeast=$7.99 each
Hops=$2.40/oz (avg)

 

[Wreck99]

I get my bulk grains at $.70 a pound. 3# bag of DME runs maybe $14

Buying bulk grains is the way to go. Now if only the Philly area had another bulk buy going on...

 

[GuitsBoy]

I think once it becomes work, you should apply for a business license. This is a hobby, so it will naturally be a money pit. :fro:

Ha! Youre right, it's just a hobby, despite how I try to spin it off as a cost savings measure to the wife.

But I guess whether its an extra 4 hours of work or 4 hours of play depends on my mood. Ever try brewing completely sober? That lands solidly on the "work" end of the spectrum.

 

[eman_resu]

:You guys "over there" are so LUCKY when it comes to brewing beer. As for your weather you can keep it. LOL

I can relate to that, except I'd trade weather with just about anybody

I got the urge to crunch the numbers to compare, out of curiosity. Resulting HBS (no L in that for me) prices:

Base grain: 2,25-2,90€/kg ~ 1.15-1.50$/lbs
Specialty grain: 3,90€/kg ~ 2.00$/lbs
Dme: 6,20€/500g ~ 6.30$/lbs
Lme: 12,90-16,90€/1,5kg ~ 14.40-18.85$/3.3lbs

Dry yeast: 3,20-6,20€ ~ 3.60-6.90$
Liquid yeast: 11,90 € ~ 13.30$
Hops: 6,90-10,60€/100g ~ 2.20-3.35$/oz

The prices for grain are not that bad, but hops and yeast pushes the price per batch up a bit. Well, I guess it could always be worse...

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't understand how a shop can expect these markups to not drive customers to Internet shops. I get 11 bucks for 3 lbs of dme.

 

[55x11]

Ha! Youre right, it's just a hobby, despite how I try to spin it off as a cost savings measure to the wife.

But I guess whether its an extra 4 hours of work or 4 hours of play depends on my mood. Ever try brewing completely sober? That lands solidly on the "work" end of the spectrum.

I brew sober all the time. It is still fun. It's like a science experiment. Turning grain (with hops and yeast) into delicious beer. Magical!

 

[wilserbrewer]

I don't understand how a shop can expect these markups to not drive customers to Internet shops. I get 11 bucks for 3 lbs of dme.

I agree Bobby, I'm guessing most of them are happy to do low volume and high mark up. As far as I know, you are New Jersey's only "legit" home brew shop.

Your prices for grain are very reasonable as well....I guess I could just say all your prices are where they should be.....

Thank you!

 

[ong]

The shop half a mile from me does $2 a lb for LME, which is great (more if you don't bring your own container). And $35 for a 55 lb sack of grain. So it's still a lot cheaper to go all-grain, but you can do most extract brews for well under $20, too. No idea why they're so much better on pricing than many shops, except that there are about 10 LHBSs within a 10 mile radius.

 

[Wreck99]

I don't understand how a shop can expect these markups to not drive customers to Internet shops. I get 11 bucks for 3 lbs of dme.

Bobby has GREAT prices on grains, compared to my local shop. He's a little bit of a drive, but totally worth it for me. If you're in the area, I recommend going to see him

 

[Qhrumphf]

The shop half a mile from me does $2 a lb for LME, which is great (more if you don't bring your own container). And $35 for a 55 lb sack of grain. So it's still a lot cheaper to go all-grain, but you can do most extract brews for well under $20, too. No idea why they're so much better on pricing than many shops, except that there are about 10 LHBSs within a 10 mile radius.

That settles it. I'm moving to Portland.

 

[govner1]

I just picked up the ingredients for two 6 gal AG brews including hops & 4 pkg of Wyeast. One is a black IPA & the other a double red. Total cost came to a
little under $70 w/ tax.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I just picked up the ingredients for two 6 gal AG brews including hops & 4 pkg of Wyeast. One is a black IPA & the other a double red. Total cost came to a
little under $70 w/ tax.

$70 for 96 pints is only $0.73 a pint....not bad at all!

Or 56 cents per 12 oz beer

 

[chawn]

I don't understand how a shop can expect these markups to not drive customers to Internet shops. I get 11 bucks for 3 lbs of dme.

I can get a better deal via the internet. But I enjoy talking about beer to people that are equally passionate about the craft. The extra cost is worth it to me.

 

[chuckthebutcher]

I paid $1.75 a pound for basic 2 row today at my lbhs. I want to support local but it's hard to when your paying that much and if you brew a lot

 

[relicdog]

40 cdn $ for base grain 55lbs and 1kg of DME for 10.95. Specialty grains are 60-70$.