Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

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HappyFermentations said:
So, mine fermented for 2 weeks and has been in the bottle for 2. Boy, is it tart! Does that fade with time? Right now it's super dry, which is fine, but is so tart it'll crack your teeth!
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I think that depends on the juice. How much citric acid is added....
 
I made this and it taste like an apple farted in a Bud Light. Hopefully it gets a little better with age.
Mines about two months old. It's dry and tart. It is getting more apple flavor as it sits. I wondering if this is not a better recipe to keg so you can more easily back sweet it.
 
I wonder how this would turn out if you followed the "Sweet Country Cider" process. Add some extra sugar (DME?) and then bottle and pasteurize while it's still fermenting once it gets down to like 1.03 or 1.02. That way it might retain some more of the Apple taste and natural sweetness. Any thoughts?
 
Mine is now getting kegged up now. Not what really what I was expecting; I was hoping for a tad sweeter. It is dry and very tart from sample out of fermenter.
OG was 1.052 and now at 1.010 with estimate ABV of 5.6%. Anyone tried to back sweeeten or will it mellow out?
 
ShepFL said:
Mine is now getting kegged up now. Not what really what I was expecting; I was hoping for a tad sweeter. It is dry and very tart from sample out of fermenter.
OG was 1.502 and now at 1.010 with estimate ABV of 5.6%. Anyone tried to back sweeeten or will it mellow out?
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Did you use cider or juice? I used cider and got the same result as you did.
 
Roland_deschain said:
Did you use cider or juice? I used cider and got the same result as you did.
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Roland
Everything left over in the fridge becomes pot of soup on Sundays. Last Sunday had some leftover stuff laying around so making this now. OG right now is 1.052 and 1.01.

.5 lbs of Crystal 60L
1 gallon musslemans apple joice
2 gallons golden delicious juice (fresh)
1 gallon cranberry juice
1 gallon of water
3 lbs of amber lme
0.5 oz of German Hallertau

Very tart and very dry. If anything I guess I have a baseline for sour. Maybe I invite Bret and Lacto to the party.

Liked it better before it fermented out - was like a mulled fall drink! Waiting to see what natural carbing does; others here say it is awesome. More to come in 2 wks.
 
ShepFL said:
Mine is now getting kegged up now. Not what really what I was expecting; I was hoping for a tad sweeter. It is dry and very tart from sample out of fermenter.
OG was 1.052 and now at 1.010 with estimate ABV of 5.6%. Anyone tried to back sweeeten or will it mellow out?
Click to expand...

If you are kegging and keeping it cold for the rest of its life, sweeten all you want. Maybe just add a can of aj concentrate or something a bit more exotic. Brown sugar, candi sugar, rock candy, nesquick. What ever you want. The cold should dormant the yeast. Just remember that if you try to bottle or transport a growler warm.
 
If you keg you can bleed off extra pressure if it builds up. Also, you can stabilize like wine and back sweeten and then force carbonate.
 
Hi all. I have yet to make a cider, or this recipe. I am in the information gathering stage. I have read about the first 35 pages of this thread, and the last five pages, and it seems all have been using ale yeast. I don't have time to read the entire thread, so please forgive me if this has been asked before, but has anyone swapped out ale yeast for 71B-1122 wine yeast in Brandon's original recipe? If you could give me an idea of what page it is on, that would be great.

Otherwise, I can see two potential advantages to 71B:

1.) I have read that, like most wine yeast, it has difficulty fermenting maltose, so it may leave a bit more residual sweetness than ale yeast.

2.) 71B degrades quite a bit of malic acid, which accounts for much of the tartness of apples. Apparently it is used a lot in the making of non-grape wines for this very reason.

Thoughts? Thanks.
 
So I'm now nearing the two month mark and it's ...almost drinkable. The apple taste is starting to come back and a lot of the "smack you in the face" tartness is gone. I'm going to finish this bottle and then leave the rest sit for at least another month before cracking them open again. Who knows, by St. Patrick's day I may be kicking myself for not having a pipeline built up.

Beyond the taste it LOOKS amazing. Deep Amber and totally clear. It's also got a fantastic head and plenty of carbonation that last the entire glass.
 
Does citric acid make a significant difference in "tartness". Anyone brewed with both non citric acid and citric acid added apple juice and have feedback? I brewed with citric acid and it has a little tartness but it's not overly tart. I did add 1lb of Belgian candy syrup as well....
 
I'm terrible at following directions to a "T" so here's my graff I brewed today.

9.2 oz Crystal 85
2.0 oz T. Wheat
1lbs Amber DME
1lbs Light DME
1 oz. of my home grown Crystal Hops
4 gallons of "Mark your Member's" AJ from Sam's
Pitched Notty cake from my just bottled Mild.
Pitched at 59 F with slow ramp up to 62 f.

Note:
Start of the boil I added my hops. The whole house smelled like a malty rose pedal. It smelled fantastic.
The hops, I assumed where around 4-5 IBU, so adding an ounce I figured wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'll find out.
 
My son and I put this together last night, following the original recipe. We loaded it into a FastFerment which is sitting in the basement. The basement temperature is right around 60 degrees. The original recipe states fermentation at 64-68 degrees. Upstairs in a closet would be around 68-70 degrees. Is a bit cooler better than a bit warmer concerning ambient temperature?

This is our third ever brew. First was a Australian IPA kit which turned out really well. Second is a chocolate stout 1 gal. kit which is percolating away as I type.

The OG measured 1.14, which I attributed the the heavy silt in the mash in the hydro. reading tube.

Kevin
 
60 is great. 58 even better as the internal temperature will be much higher. Internal temp can be 8-12* higher in peak fermentation, but you may have to raise the temp somehow to get it to finish out.
 
My graff is about 4 months old. Maybe it's just not for me cause I'm still not feeling it. At some point I may try a different version I've seen posted that has some darker malts and a touch of smoked malt, but for my tastes I'd rather have a beer or a cider, but the two combined just isn't appealing to my taste buds.
 
Jwin said:
60 is great. 58 even better as the internal temperature will be much higher. Internal temp can be 8-12* higher in peak fermentation, but you may have to raise the temp somehow to get it to finish out.
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Jwin said:
1.14 sounds very high
Did you mix it well before the gravity reading?
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I went down this morning for a check. I have the entire fermenter draped with a quilt. The thermometer built into the side says 57-58 degrees. The basement temperature is also 58 degrees, so they are balance out.

I was thinking that now all the sediment has settled, I just took another reading. With the little bit of small bubbles right at the top of the sample, my x-ray vision shows a reading of 1.06 or 1.062. There was a little bit of foaming right in the center of the brew in the fermenter.

I was also thinking perhaps I should attach my theraputic heating pad to the side and set it on low to raise the temp a bit.
 
I also just thought that the original reading was done with straight wort, before mixing with the apple juice.
 
In the world of cider making, generally you would try to find the cloudiest juice when using the cheap store bought stuff, but not so for graff.

My first batch was not good tasting, and frankly, it looked like liquid vommit. I used store bought, fresh pressed, TreeTop honeycrisp apple juice and it was barely drinkable. Switched to the three blend, clear looking, fresh pressed TreeTop apple juice, and i'm finally able to see what people are talking about!

I seriously thought I had messed up somewhere because the first batch was terrible. Take #2 is excellent! Nice bit of apple flavor, very clear, and easy drinking.

Anyone have any suggestions for lowering the ABV? I'm sitting at 8% and would prefer it to be around 5-6% so my wife would more enjoy it. The fermentation is too fast to stop mid cycle (using Nottingham Ale Yeast), so i'm not sure what to try.

FullSizeRender.jpg
 
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jpoppinmoneyunit said:
In the world of cider making, generally you would try to find the cloudiest juice when using the cheap store bought stuff, but not so for graff.

My first batch was not good tasting, and frankly, it looked like liquid vommit. I used store bought, fresh pressed, TreeTop honeycrisp apple juice and it was barely drinkable. Switched to the three blend, clear looking, fresh pressed TreeTop apple juice, and i'm finally able to see what people are talking about!

I seriously thought I had messed up somewhere because the first batch was terrible. Take #2 is excellent! Nice bit of apple flavor, very clear, and easy drinking.

Anyone have any suggestions for lowering the ABV? I'm sitting at 8% and would prefer it to be around 5-6% so my wife would more enjoy it. The fermentation is too fast to stop mid cycle (using Nottingham Ale Yeast), so i'm not sure what to try.
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I am trying to understand why your first batch was not good and your second was so much better. I see from the Tree Top website that the three apple blend juice is made from Granny Smith, Red Delicious, and Golden Delicious. I wonder if the Granny Smith are making the difference, with their tartness?

As for lowering the ABV, why don't you just add water until you get to an OG of 1.045 or 1.050? Just out of curiosity, what were your OG, and FG, if you don't mind me asking. I have never used Tree Top (not available in my area) but most of the store bought juices I've checked seem to have an OG of 1.050.
 
Just add 1/3 fresh apple juice to glass, a splash of 7 up, or Ginger Ale, will give a sweeter carbed drink.

I made the TT honeycrisp mistake too. Three juice blend is better than reg, it's a bit tarter.
 
Beats me why the first was so bad. I think the honeycrisp flavor didn't mix well with the dme because i've made decent ciders with the honeycrisp, but the 3 blend was much better for graff.

I had an OG of 1.070 and FG of 1.010, for a one gallon batch using Nottingham. Bandon O gave a 1gal scaled recipe somewhere in the thread. 2 weeks in primary and 2 weeks bottle condition and there's minimal tartness. Pretty happy with the results. You can taste the high alcohol for sure.
 
Found a bottle of my first batch in the back of the fridge last night. Was about 18 months old. Delicious and crystal clear. It was gone before I thought of taking a picture of it.
I might start an aged rotation of this stuff.
 
Should I re-pitch the yeast?

I have a Graf fermentation and yeast question, if I may.

We put together Brandon's recipe on Feb. 4th. In looking back, I think I pitched the yeast in too cold a brew. I had the wort chiller going and got distracted. Wort was in the 50's when I returned. The apple cider was room temp. when combine and yeast pitched. The brew is in a FastFerment and was taken to the basement. Basement stays about 56-58 degrees. 60 degrees one day. Covered it with a comforter after seeing no activity for several days. Removed the comforter on the 10th and there was a little foam on the top.

Feb. 11th. I double checked the recipe and saw that room temp should be 62-68 degrees. We carried it upstairs and put it in a dark closet. Room temp 67 degrees. When we set it down, all the coagulated floaties (that's a scientific term you'll study in class next week) dropped from top to bottom.

There has been no further activity seen. I have read the posts that say you may see no activity. So I guess my big concern is yeast viability.

Did I damage the yeast pitching it into such a cold medium? Should I re-pitch the yeast?

Thanks for your consideration.

Kevin
 
You really need to take a gravity reading for an honest answer of re-pitching. It could have been very slowly fermenting in cooler temps and then when you moved it to a warmer temp it could have finished out overnight really fast if using Nottingham.

A gravity reading will tell you your next move. If you saw krausen and now it's settled at the bottom, that tells me you had some fermentation action going on and it could be done.
 
Just went and did a YouTube check for recent vids...only two. I think the folks that are actually brewing this on a regular basis are still hiding out and working on thier own recipe's. Its been around five years now, this should have exploded. Ahh well.
 
Take a reading, notty can stand 50s easy, it's probably done. If gravity is too low (already done) repitching won't do anything.
 
Thanks for the help. First reading I took was just the wort. 1.14. Two days later I realized my mistake and took another reading. 1.060. Today, following your advise, I took another reading. 1.008! So something has been happening. And some krausen on top.

Is 1.06 and 1.008 in line with what others have gotten?

My son and I tasted the hydrometer sample and both thought it tastes tart and like grapefruit. I thought almost vinegar-y. Dry on the tongue.

What are your opinions on going on to secondary? If going straight to bottling, or if bottling after secondary, are you adding any sugar for carbonation? I didn't see that in the in the recipe. Or I missed it.
 
You can go to secondary if you want. @ 1.008 it still has room to drop. You can either wait for it to stabilize, for three days, same reading or bottle it and pasteurize it, when it has carbed enough.

I wait for 1.002, cold crash to clear and bottle it, I do PET test bottle and stovetop pasteurization, to stop it.
 
I just made my first batch. Went with basically the initially published recipe. I figure it's best to start basic, and make mods on subsequent batches. Looking forward to trying this out.

4 gallons of Kirkland Apple Juice
1lb light and 1lb Amber DME
.5lb C60 and 2oz torrified wheat steeped in DME solution at 155ish for 30min.
.5oz Citra added for 30min boil
1tsp yeast nutrient @15min (can't hurt)
1/4tsp irish moss @15min (out of habit)

I ended with basically exactly 5 gallons. The hydrometer sample read in at 1.058, and was pretty clear. There was some fair hot break suspended, and the beer portion seems to have good head retention properties already. Pitched half a washed yeast cake of Wyeast 1098. Should be chugging along shortly.
 
I just cashed my 1st keg of Graff. I also followed the recipe to a T. However mine took quite a while to mellow out and really get a good flavor going. I added apple flavoring to mine and let it sit in my keg for months. After that is was a beautiful really tasty cider/beer with a good kick to it.
 
Made my first batch about a month ago.

Nottingham yeast
.5 lbs of Crystal 120
1 oz of torrified wheat
4 Gallons of Whole Foods apple juice
1 gallon of water
1 lb. amber DME
1 lb. light DME
1/2 lb. Brown sugar

.5 oz Mt Hood hops

Pectic enzyme and irish moss to help clear it out
Added Yeast nutrient

Fermented at 55f for 1 month. (Didn't have a ferm chamber set up yet)

OG was 1.062 and it's now sitting at 1.006 after a month.


From the hydro sample I drank, it tasted decent, but I didn't love it. Maybe carbing it up would bring some life to it. Adding the brown sugar may have dried it out more than I would have liked, or the Nottingham was more attenuative than I expected. It was quite tart, with faint apple character and a very thin body.

I ended up racking it on top of 4 lbs fresh apples, and will let it sit for another month or two. I'll probably rack it off the apples and let it age for a few more months, and possibly dry hop with Galaxy before cold crashing, fining, and bottling.

I will report back with results.
 
My crazy version of this was 7# 2-row, 11 oz of Chocolate Malt cold steeped and added to the boil, 45 minute boil. 1oz Crystal hops 30 minute boil (3.3 Alpha), 1.5 oz Crystal and .5 oz Blood Orange Peel and 2 tbs Toasted Fennel Seeds at 5 minute mark. Chill wort to about 80 and had about 1.25 on top of 4 gallon of Kirkland AJ. added us-05. Ferment about 62. Kegged with naturally carbonation of 75 grams of brown sugar/water boil. Final product. Little trace of citrus, fennel is presence with apple and little malt backbone. Some don't like fennel/anise/Licorice but I am digging it.
 
I am kegging tonight, should have about 4.5 gallons. This stuff dried out. After basically 1 month, it's down to 1.000, which clocks it in around 7.6%. The taste is pretty neutral. I fermented it in the mid to upper 60's, but still I expected more esters and character from the yeast. Faint apple, and not much else. Once cooled down and carbed up, hopefully it should have more character. If not, I may dryhop it with something tropical or maybe fruit it.
 
What is a normal final gravity people are getting? I'm at about 1.007 which I'm guessing is about where it should be?
 
Most of the FG's I've been seeing are right around 1.006-8. Mine finished really dry for reasons that I still don't understand. Cooled and carbed it's fairly good, but I was looking for a little more residual sweetness and malt character.
 
So this what I tried.

3 lb Pale ale
2 oz. Crystal 120
2 oz. CaraPils

Mash 154 for 60 min in one gallon water
Boil 30 minutes with .15 oz Sonnet 4.2 AA
Cool wort add 2 Gal of Apple Juice.

Nottingham Yeast
IBU: 7
ABV: 6.5

Boiled the wort harder than I should have and ended up with 3/4G of 1.087 to mix with 2 gallons of juice. Just tried the first one, slight tart flavor, tastes good, but I think the next time I will make a 1 1/4G wort somewhere around 1.110 and add two gallons of juice. Should end with a 1.070, and maybe wont finish as dry. First batch finished @ 1.008.
 

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