Golden Naked Oats and Session IPA Feedback

[TxBigHops]

After reading this thread and not getting any feedback, I decided to start a new one. Looking for input from brewers who have used Simpson's GNO in lower gravity beers. NOT looking for arguments as to whether Session IPAs are a thing or not. Take those somewhere else please. As Yooper said in the other thread, I want to brew a beer with all the flavor, body and hop profile of a 7% IPA, but under 5% alcohol. So after running across some posts on GNO, I'm thinking it's a grain that might help to achieve that goal.

I'm also thinking Simpson's Golden Promise as part of the base grain bill might help. I just returned from a trip to Iowa where I got to purchase some Toppling Goliath Golden Nugget which uses Golden Promise. It is a fantastic 6% IPA.

So here's my current recipe. Please comment away on either the recipe as a whole, or specifically the result of including GNO. Thanks!

Title: Session IPA
Author: TxBigHops

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.75 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.035
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 4.72%
IBU (tinseth): 58.75
SRM (morey): 8.19

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (39.5%)
3 lb - United Kingdom - Golden Promise (29.6%)
1 lb - American - Munich - Light 10L (9.9%)
12 oz - American - Victory (7.4%)
8 oz - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (4.9%)
8 oz - United Kingdom - Golden Naked Oats (4.9%)
6 oz - United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37) (3.7%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 19.26
0.5 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 12.44
1 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 12.88
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 4.33
1 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 9.84
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 170 °F
1 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 170 °F
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 4 days
2 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 4 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb

YEAST:
Wyeast - Denny's Favorite 50 1450
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 60 - 70 F
Fermentation Temp: 68 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

This recipe has been published online at:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebre...57/session-ipa

Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2016-01-11 19:49 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2016-01-11 19:49 UTC

 

[BigMack]

I've used oats in an IPA before, and have had some commercial brews that have them as well. I think if used right it can be awesome!

A question on the malt bill, why the victory? I know everyone has their own personal preferences, but in my opinion that victory will probably make the beer a little too nutty and bready for an IPA like this. Again, if you like the victory use as much as you want, just curious as to your reasoning on it.

 

[TxBigHops]

I've used oats in an IPA before, and have had some commercial brews that have them as well. I think if used right it can be awesome!

A question on the malt bill, why the victory? I know everyone has their own personal preferences, but in my opinion that victory will probably make the beer a little too nutty and bready for an IPA like this. Again, if you like the victory use as much as you want, just curious as to your reasoning on it.

Thanks for contributing. To be clear, I'm talking specifically about Simpson's Golden naked oats, not oats in general. It's a huskless whole grain crystal malt that I believe is not particularly similar to flaked or other oat adjuncts.

I'm using Victory at the recommendation of Yooper in the original thread linked at the beginning of my post, and from some other reading. I haven't used it before, but she uses Victory or Aromatic malt to add complexity and depth to the lower gravity grain bill. I can't find the exact post now, but I thought I remembered reading that Victory was better with Munich than Aromatic, so that's why its in there. I don't have any specific experience with it, so I appreciate your feedback, or any alternate suggestions. Just remember, the goal is a beer that drinks like a standard IPA, but just has a lower ABV.

 

[chickypad]

I would consider using either the GNO or the victory. The first time I experimented with GNO I also got some advice from Yooper - see here where she notes they are kind of toasty and nutty like victory and really aren't like a crystal malt (despite their description). Now that I've gotten some more experience with them I definitely agree with her comments, in paler beers they almost taste a little peanuty to me. I've used them in APA's, browns, ambers similar to the way I might use victory.

 

[slym2none]

FTR, from my LHBS' description:

This specialty grain lends a sweet berry-nut flavor. Use at a rate of 4-15% of the total grist to deliver a deep golden hue with light caramel flavors as well as a creamy, satin finish and a fantastic "shaving cream" foam. Exotic ingredient for subtle nutty difference. Try this as a "secret" ingredient in literally any beer style! Proven to go especially well in Pale Ales, IPAs, Bitters, Brown Ales, or Stouts - you'll love it!

 

[chickypad]

I know it says that but I have never experienced the sweet berry that they describe, and sounds like others who have used them say the same. They really don't come out tasting like a caramel malt IME. The best descriptor I have is like victory but more toward peanut flavor.

 

[slym2none]

That was really more for us who thought they were actually oats.

 

[chickypad]

That was really more for us who thought they were actually oats.

Well they are, right? But processed. So shall we say victory malt is to flaked barley as golden naked oats are to flaked oats?

 

[slym2none]

My brain is broken today.

 

[TxBigHops]

I would consider using either the GNO or the victory. The first time I experimented with GNO I also got some advice from Yooper - see here where she notes they are kind of toasty and nutty like victory and really aren't like a crystal malt (despite their description). Now that I've gotten some more experience with them I definitely agree with her comments, in paler beers they almost taste a little peanuty to me. I've used them in APA's, browns, ambers similar to the way I might use victory.

Thanks for the link. So I agree - if I use GNO, I need to drop the Victory. So should I replace it with something else like Aromatic or Biscuit, or bump up the Munich to get to my OG?

 

[IslandLizard]

GNO are crystal oats. So treat them like a light crystal, around 10-12L. They're quite delicate, nutty, and light in color. They're also a bit oily and leave a wonderful finish and flavor in your beer... if you add enough of them! 5% is the minimum if you want to be able to find them at all. 10-15% is definitely detectable. Leave the Victory out, it will totally overshadow them. I'd leave the Carastan out too, yielding both percentages to the GNO.

They are very small, long narrow kernels and a bit "chewy". Mill them separately with an adjusted gap. I use 0.020-0.022".

 

[chickypad]

Thanks for the link. So I agree - if I use GNO, I need to drop the Victory. So should I replace it with something else like Aromatic or Biscuit, or bump up the Munich to get to my OG?

It really depends what you want. For the purposes of recipe formulation, as I said I don't I don't consider GNO like a crystal malt but on the toasty/nutty spectrum like victory and biscuit. Replacing the victory with biscuit in my mind is not really a change in character, more a slight difference in maltsters. I would pick one of those three in a given recipe, and make up the rest with base malt. The choice to use Munich/aromatic and how much is a separate issue in my mind, they provide a different kind of maltiness. Personally I don't like a lot of that character in my IPA's but lots of folks do.

 

[TxBigHops]

GNO are crystal oats. So treat them like a light crystal, around 10-12L. They're quite delicate, nutty, and light in color. They're also a bit oily and leave a wonderful finish and flavor in your beer... if you add enough of them! 5% is the minimum if you want to be able to find them at all. 10-15% is definitely detectable. Leave the Victory out, it will totally overshadow them. I'd leave the Carastan out too, yielding both percentages to the GNO.

They are very small, long narrow kernels and a bit "chewy". Mill them separately with an adjusted gap. I use 0.020-0.022".

It really depends what you want. For the purposes of recipe formulation, as I said I don't I don't consider GNO like a crystal malt but on the toasty/nutty spectrum like victory and biscuit. Replacing the victory with biscuit in my mind is not really a change in character, more a slight difference in maltsters. I would pick one of those three in a given recipe, and make up the rest with base malt. The choice to use Munich/aromatic and how much is a separate issue in my mind, they provide a different kind of maltiness. Personally I don't like a lot of that character in my IPA's but lots of folks do.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate all the input. I have two concerns. First, the sum of those three malts is nearly two pounds. Not sure I'm comfortable using that much of an unusual malt that I've never used or knowingly tasted before. I think I would want to limit it, in this first attempt, to around 12-16 oz. That would put it at 7-10%. Should be enough to notice and determine how much I like it. If it's not enough, I can bump it in my next attempt.

So that brings us to the second concern. Most of the color in the beer came from the Victory and the Carastan. If I drop them both, I need to insert something else that goes with this malt bill, adds to the goal of the recipe, and provides the color needed to get back up around 8 SRM where I'd like to be.

I think I understand what you mean about aromatic. For this particular beer, I think some extra maltiness will give the impression of a bit bigger beer. I also think if I keep a bit of carastan (reduce to 4 oz) I can still hit the color I want. I'll play with these various malts and post an updated recipe tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[alhounos]

For an IPA recipe, there sure is an awful lot of talk about the grain bill in this thread.

Read the IPA article that was posted on the front page a few weeks ago. 30 and even 15 minute hops could be used more effectively after the boil. Also, the dry hops are a bit light. I think 1oz/gal is a good starting point.

I personally don't do any hopping in the boil outside of bittering at 60. And with low gravity session beers I'll not bitter at all. Just a few ounces in a 30 minute hopstand.

 

[BigMack]

Thanks for contributing. To be clear, I'm talking specifically about Simpson's Golden naked oats, not oats in general. It's a huskless whole grain crystal malt that I believe is not particularly similar to flaked or other oat adjuncts.

I'm using Victory at the recommendation of Yooper in the original thread linked at the beginning of my post, and from some other reading. I haven't used it before, but she uses Victory or Aromatic malt to add complexity and depth to the lower gravity grain bill. I can't find the exact post now, but I thought I remembered reading that Victory was better with Munich than Aromatic, so that's why its in there. I don't have any specific experience with it, so I appreciate your feedback, or any alternate suggestions. Just remember, the goal is a beer that drinks like a standard IPA, but just has a lower ABV.

Don't worry, we were on the same page. I should've been more specific I suppose.

 

[IslandLizard]

For an IPA recipe, there sure is an awful lot of talk about the grain bill in this thread.

Read the IPA article that was posted on the front page a few weeks ago. 30 and even 15 minute hops could be used more effectively after the boil. Also, the dry hops are a bit light. I think 1oz/gal is a good starting point.

I personally don't do any hopping in the boil outside of bittering at 60. And with low gravity session beers I'll not bitter at all. Just a few ounces in a 30 minute hopstand.

We didn't get to the hops yet...

But I think your method is very valid for a modern day IPA. At what temperature do you start adding the hopstand/whirlpool hops? Do you let it naturally cool down while it stands or keep the temp the same for 30-60 minutes?

60 minute hopstands while recirculating at 180-170°F have my preference now.

 

[TxBigHops]

For an IPA recipe, there sure is an awful lot of talk about the grain bill in this thread.

Read the IPA article that was posted on the front page a few weeks ago. 30 and even 15 minute hops could be used more effectively after the boil. Also, the dry hops are a bit light. I think 1oz/gal is a good starting point.

I personally don't do any hopping in the boil outside of bittering at 60. And with low gravity session beers I'll not bitter at all. Just a few ounces in a 30 minute hopstand.

Well first of all, the grain bill is the area where I have questions. I'm pretty happy with the hop schedule. Possibly you didn't read the recipe all that closely. I'm only using 1 oz out of 8 total prior to 10 minutes. A similar schedule with my last two IPAs turned out fantastic! Also, you do realize this beer only has an OG of 1.050, don't you? But thanks for weighing in.

We didn't get to the hops yet...

But I think your method is very valid for a modern day IPA. At what temperature do you start adding the hopstand/whirlpool hops? Do you let it naturally cool down while it stands or keep the temp the same for 30-60 minutes?

60 minute hopstands while recirculating at 180-170°F have my preference now.

I use my immersion chiller to drop the temp under 180, then I toss in the whirlpool hops and stir for 20-30 minutes. That's about as long as I can go. I don't have any pumps yet, so no ability to recirculate. Maybe someday... Once the whirlpool is complete, I continue to chill down to pitching temp. As I stated above, I've used this method on my last two IPAs and gotten great results.

 

[alhounos]

We didn't get to the hops yet...

But I think your method is very valid for a modern day IPA. At what temperature do you start adding the hopstand/whirlpool hops? Do you let it naturally cool down while it stands or keep the temp the same for 30-60 minutes?

60 minute hopstands while recirculating at 180-170°F have my preference now.

I just pitch them in after the boil and let them sit for 30+ minutes. After 45 minutes I'm usually at 170 or so, but I only do 3 gallons typically.

Have you ever compared flameout against the lower temperature hopstand? Compared 60 to 30 minutes? I'm interested in those little tweaks but I've been too lazy to do a side by side myself.

 

[TxBigHops]

OK, Here is the revised grain bill.

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 4.78%
IBU (tinseth): 58.54
SRM (morey): 7.29

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (39%)
3 lb - United Kingdom - Golden Promise (29.3%)
1 lb - American - Munich - Light 10L (9.8%)
1 lb - United Kingdom - Golden Naked Oats (9.8%)
8 oz - American - Aromatic Malt (4.9%)
8 oz - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (4.9%)
4 oz - United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37) (2.4%)

Still not sure if I'm comfortable with a full pound of GNO. I dropped the Victory and replaced it with a smaller amount of Aromatic. I reduced the Carastan to 4 oz. Without these two malts, the SRM would have dropped into the 5s. It's still almost a full point lower than the original recipe, but I can live with it.

Does anyone else want to weigh in on a successful attempt at brewing an IPA with under 5% ABV? Happy to discuss any other elements of brewing this style of beer.

 

[chrilr]

Why are you worried about 10% golden naked oats?

 

[m00ps]

Golden naked oats are my favorite malt. But I would limit them to 8oz or less in an IPA. 8oz would be good for a session one where you need to balance with more malt backbone, but I think the aromatic, carastan and munich are going to detract from your perception of them. Ive got a good session IPA recipe. But then next batch I ruined it by adding a bag of jolly ranchers to it. and by "ruin" I mean it brought it to an unexpected level of awesome

 

[TxBigHops]

Thanks @m00ps. I knew I had read someone recomending to keep the GNO at 8 oz or less. But if you're saying the other malts will detract from it, then why not bump it up to a pound? I don't want to pull the Aromatic and Carastan, because then I would have a 5 SRM beer. I don't want it to be that light in color. I want a beer that when I serve it, the drinker thinks it's a full fledged IPA, and is then shocked when I tell them it's only 4.7% alcohol. I feel that too light a color will detract from that illusion. Maybe I'm being silly and shouldn't get so caught up in color. I suppose there are lots of IPAs in the 5 SRM range.

 

[TxBigHops]

OK, I have re-thunk this entire recipe. Thanks for all the great contributions.

First off - it was too complicated. Three different base malts and no real reason why. So I scrapped them all and decided to swtich to Maris Otter for some malty backbone and a bit of color.

Then I added a bit of dark (or red?) wheat for a touch more color and some haziness.

Now the Golden Naked Oats. Gonna go with 12 oz. Compromise between m00ps suggestion and the earlier 16 oz.

And finally a bit of Dextrine, just because. So here it is:

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 4.75%
IBU (tinseth): 58.64
SRM (morey): 6.25

FERMENTABLES:
7 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (71.8%)
1.5 lb - German - Dark Wheat (15.4%)
12 oz - United Kingdom - Golden Naked Oats (7.7%)
8 oz - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (5.1%)

No change from the original Yeast and Hop schedule. Getting excited about this one. I'll probably brew it on Sat Jan 30. Results will be posted back here for anyone who's interested.

 

[kingwood-kid]

My advice on session beers you want to taste bigger would be to worry equally about residual sugars as about malt flavor. MO is wonderfully flavorful as compared to 2-row; I'm not sure you'd need a lot of specialty grains along with it. GNO (or a combo of Victory and flaked oats) is a good choice though, as it should bring both flavor and body. Whatever you settle on, I'd mash at a high temp for a shorter than usual time to ensure a higher FG and better mouthfeel. Either way, I'm looking forward to the final product.

 

[TxBigHops]

My advice on session beers you want to taste bigger would be to worry equally about residual sugars as about malt flavor. MO is wonderfully flavorful as compared to 2-row; I'm not sure you'd need a lot of specialty grains along with it. GNO (or a combo of Victory and flaked oats) is a good choice though, as it should bring both flavor and body. Whatever you settle on, I'd mash at a high temp for a shorter than usual time to ensure a higher FG and better mouthfeel. Either way, I'm looking forward to the final product.

Sounds good buddy. You know you will get to taste it. We missed you at the brew day on Saturday. I had a bunch of my latest beers there. I would have enjoyed getting your feedback.

The full recipe is in the first post. Planning to mash at 156, and using Wyeast 1450 because it attenuates a little lower that some other yeasts. Hoping that combination will get me a FG of 1.014. So why mash for a shorter time period? To intentionally get lower conversion?

 

[kingwood-kid]

So why mash for a shorter time period? To intentionally get lower conversion?

Right; all the starch should be broken down in 15-20 minutes. Letting it mash longer will change unfermentable dextrins to fermentable sugars. I don't usually mash out because I'm lazy, but this would be a good time to do so, so that you can denature the enzymes. Low-attenuating yeast is an excellent choice.

I'll see you next Friday, I hope. Love to sample your beers then.

 

[Cevans95]

I know it's a little late but I would love to hear the results of this beer.

 

[atom]

my last session ipa had almost 8% GNO (1.5 lb in an 11 gal batch). and the one i'm brewing tomorrow will have the same.