glycol help with valves and temp controllers

[hopbrad]

I am about to up my nano from 50 gallons to 3bbl and purchase some 3bbl fermenters with cooling coils and a glycol unit.
I am wondering how the glycol unit will control various fermenters at different temperatures? Sounds like each Fermenter will get a temp controller and a solenoid valve or motorized ball valve.
Anyone have suggestions, products or advice with this?

sorry if this is more suited for the pro-brewer site, ill post there too.

 

[helterscelter]

I am about to up my nano from 50 gallons to 3bbl and purchase some 3bbl fermenters with cooling coils and a glycol unit.
I am wondering how the glycol unit will control various fermenters at different temperatures? Sounds like each Fermenter will get a temp controller and a solenoid valve or motorized ball valve.
Anyone have suggestions, products or advice with this?

sorry if this is more suited for the pro-brewer site, ill post there too.

I've no experience with the size system you are talking about. I currently ferment in 15.5g Sanke kegs using a glycol chiller loop for temp control. (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=8013716)

essentially I do exactly what you have described. I have my chiller constantly pumping through a manifold with solenoid valves for each of my fermenters. a temp controller per-fermenter monitors the temperature and actuates the solenoid for the fermenter it's controlling when the temp gets too high. I'm using dual-stage controllers so once my ambient temps drop below my intended ferm temps I'll wrap a heat-wrap around the fermeter(s) and use the controller to raise the temp once they get too cold. for a while I had considered running a hot-loop and a cold-loop for this, but the chiller + heat-wrap is a simpler option for me.. on a larger system I suspect you'll need a hot-loop in order to raise temps quickly (d-rest, cold ambient temps, etc), rather than waiting on ambient temps to raise it for you.

there are several threads in the DIY section about glycol temp control, but none are in the range of a 3bbl system (afaik)..

I've no idea on products to recommend for a system your size.. the pro-brewer forum as you mentioned is probably a better place for that -- though there are TONS of smart/experienced people on here too, so who knows?

edited to add:

you'll probably want to use a PID based controller on such a large system.. having that much thermal mass will definitely lead you to over/under shoot your temp settings with a basic temp controller like I'm using.

 

[Morrey]

I'm looking at the same thing as you on a smaller scale.

Say I have 3 SS FTSs systems running 3 fermenters off the same chiller. I have one chiller fermenting an ale, one fermenting a lager and one cold crashing. Each one of my fermenters would have it's own separate pump and control system demanding glycol to meet the setting of the fermenter. If the cold crash fermenter needs glycol to be cold enough to chill to 34F, you'd control the freezing point of your water/glycol mix by using more glycol in the ratio so the water wont freeze around the coils if you run the chiller down to low temps.

 

[BrunDog]

You can totally do this. Using the chiller which maintains a certain temp and a series of valves or pumps to turn flow on and off is the aforementioned, correct way. The real question is the control system. You could get away with multiple basic thermostats, or use a more integrated/advanced controller.

 

[hopbrad]

Great to hear. I got the temp controller and valves understood. Just confused about the loop and maintaining the right flow. Attached is a diagram I drew up.
I feel like the flow will get messed up once it starts hitting the "T"s, the glycol would try to go IN the OUT and mess with the pressure. Or am I overthinking this?
(the little boxes are the motorized ball valves)

I've no experience with the size system you are talking about. I currently ferment in 15.5g Sanke kegs using a glycol chiller loop for temp control. (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=8013716)

essentially I do exactly what you have described. I have my chiller constantly pumping through a manifold with solenoid valves for each of my fermenters. a temp controller per-fermenter monitors the temperature and actuates the solenoid for the fermenter it's controlling when the temp gets too high. I'm using dual-stage controllers so once my ambient temps drop below my intended ferm temps I'll wrap a heat-wrap around the fermeter(s) and use the controller to raise the temp once they get too cold. for a while I had considered running a hot-loop and a cold-loop for this, but the chiller + heat-wrap is a simpler option for me.. on a larger system I suspect you'll need a hot-loop in order to raise temps quickly (d-rest, cold ambient temps, etc), rather than waiting on ambient temps to raise it for you.

there are several threads in the DIY section about glycol temp control, but none are in the range of a 3bbl system (afaik)..

I've no idea on products to recommend for a system your size.. the pro-brewer forum as you mentioned is probably a better place for that -- though there are TONS of smart/experienced people on here too, so who knows?

edited to add:

you'll probably want to use a PID based controller on such a large system.. having that much thermal mass will definitely lead you to over/under shoot your temp settings with a basic temp controller like I'm using.

 

[BrunDog]

You have it right. Don't overthink it - liquid can't flow through a closed valve in either direction. But you did uncover an important point. As shown on the very right side, you have a return loop back to the glycol input. When the fermenter valves are closed, the glycol will circulate through the loop, which is fine. But when you open a fermenter valve to cool that vessel, then glycol can either go through the fermenter or through the return loop. The return loop will have lower resistance so most of it will go that way.

If you are bent on keeping the loop full of cooled glycol, you will need to put another valve between the output and return to the chiller. It would need to close anytime a fermenter valve opens. Othersie I would recommend disconnecting the output from the input. This way the only place glycol can flow would be through a fermenter when it is open.

Another consideration would be the glycol pump. If it can't be dead-headed, then the second solution above can only work if you turn off the pump while all three valves are closed.

 

[helterscelter]

You have it right. Don't overthink it - liquid can't flow through a closed valve in either direction. But you did uncover an important point. As shown on the very right side, you have a return loop back to the glycol input. When the fermenter valves are closed, the glycol will circulate through the loop, which is fine. But when you open a fermenter valve to cool that vessel, then glycol can either go through the fermenter or through the return loop. The return loop will have lower resistance so most of it will go that way.

If you are bent on keeping the loop full of cooled glycol, you will need to put another valve between the output and return to the chiller. It would need to close anytime a fermenter valve opens. Othersie I would recommend disconnecting the output from the input. This way the only place glycol can flow would be through a fermenter when it is open.

Another consideration would be the glycol pump. If it can't be dead-headed, then the second solution above can only work if you turn off the pump while all three valves are closed.

For my loop i used a standard gate valve to restrict the flow from the supply side to the return side so that i could have one pump running continuously to circulate glycol in the chiller and so that the relative pressure on the supply side would bias flow through the valves when they open.

Ideally i would like to operate a bypass valve and have it operate in concert with the fermenter solenoids so the recirculation for the chiller would bypass the loop when no fermenters need cooling. And I'd like to switch the pump of when the glycol in the chiller resuvoir is at temp. Turning it on only while chilling the resuvoir or when cooling is called for from a fermenter. But that requires a much more sophisticated controller than i currently have

 

[BrunDog]

Yeah, as mentioned the controller plays a role! It comes down to a personal set of decisions. My call would be to turn the pump off when cooling not called for. If using thermostats to control the valves, this could be done with a basic electric "or" circuit using relays.

 

[hopbrad]

Got it, so at this point, just need to figure out the best way to control the flow into the fermenters as opposed to the glycol just running through the loop (path of least resistance).

Similar to what Brundog suggested - If I were to put a ball valve on the glycol out/supply line after the 3rd fermenter/T and partially close it, I wonder if that would restrict flow enough and when the solenoids open, there will be less resistance there and the glycol will flow more thru the fermenters.

 

[ClaudiusB]

Ideally i would like to operate a bypass valve and have it operate in concert with the fermenter solenoids so the recirculation for the chiller would bypass the loop when no fermenters need cooling.

Install a mechanical bypass valve, fail safe.
All the the pro systems I have seen and played with have one opening at 15 psi. As soon all fermenter cooling solenoids are off the pressure in the line rises and activates the bypass.

I do it electrically and with logic. Can be done with just relays and bypass valve too.

And I'd like to switch the pump of when the glycol in the chiller resuvoir is at temp.

The commercial versions I have played with never turn off the internal pump.

Turning it on only while chilling the resuvoir or when cooling is called for from a fermenter.

My internal chiller pump never turns off and constantly circulates the glycol through the fermenters or bypass loop.

 

[helterscelter]

Install a mechanical bypass valve, fail safe.
All the the pro systems I have seen and played with have one opening at 15 psi. As soon all fermenter cooling solenoids are off the pressure in the line rises and activates the bypass.

I do it electrically and with logic. Can be done with just relays and bypass valve too.

The commercial versions I have played with never turn off the internal pump.

My internal chiller pump never turns off and constantly circulates the glycol through the fermenters or bypass loop.

I'd sure be interested to see the details of your system.. it looks like where I intend to go. though I do have to qualify, I'm not the OP and I don't intend to run a pro-level brewery.

 

[hopbrad]

Can you recommend one? That sounds like a great option. So, I would install that after the 3rd fermenter. Im guessing it can be set to a certain PSI? and wa-laa, it opens?

Install a mechanical bypass valve, fail safe.
All the the pro systems I have seen and played with have one opening at 15 psi. As soon all fermenter cooling solenoids are off the pressure in the line rises and activates the bypass.

I do it electrically and with logic. Can be done with just relays and bypass valve too.

 

[SanPancho]

the pressure regulating bypass valves are expensive. i managed to get one for pretty cheap but its finicky, gate valve is easier. a Y filter is also good, as is a bypass around each solenoid so you can keep glycol moving if a solenoid seizes up.

we used black box temp controllers so we can run programs. that meant i needed 120V solenoids. theoretically you could add transformer to drop to 12 or 24v if thats the only type of solenoid you can find, but you need one for each solenoid. cheaper for us to just go 120v.

you dont have to worry about 15psi. that's the rating on the glycol jackets for a typical cylindroconical fermenter tank. if you're using plastic tanks with metal cooling coils then the psi limit is based on whatever your fittings and clamps can handle.

i'd guess you dont need anything larger than 1" lines, possibly less. the smaller the lines, the higher the pressure. so it might take some tinkering to figure it all out. the other option is to run a VFD on your pumps so you can speed them up or slow them down as needed.

wiring up the pumps to go on/off with the compressor unit is a bit of a pain. it can be done, but its not easy.

if you are piecing together the unit yourself, make sure the compressor for your chiller is a medium temp unit. there are calculators online to help you figure out how much cooling you need in terms of BTUs on sites like pro refrigeration, G&D, etc.

test the pumps and fittings and lines with water, make sure no leaks. then insulate the lines as best you can. seal them up tight. in the tropics you have tons of humidity, you're gonna get condensation 100% of the time, and it gets dirty and nasty and is no bueno. insulate everything you can afford to do.

and it is probly a good idea to run all the temp controllers on one electrical circuit, and put a universal power supply/backup unit on that circuit. we kept having issues with out temp controllers, only to realize that they kept resetting themselves every time the power blinked off for a half second. the power is mexico isnt "clean" so you deal with this stuff alot. we just bought a home computer-sized backup and wired it inline to the controllers. no issues since then.

 

[hopbrad]

Good idea on the temp controllers. Our power is very finicky and flickers quite often. I messaged them to see if the Digital ones have auto-restart and if they reset their setting when power is cut.
I may go with this Johnson Manual one, which i use for my kegerators. http://www.gwkent.com/johnson-control-manual-thermostat-control.html

The chiller:
https://foxxequipment.com/product/glycol-chiller-extra-34-hp-pr-7949

Lines:
https://foxxequipment.com/product/bevlex-series-222-polyethylene-38-id-x-12-od-pr-5623

Lines will be insulated.

the pressure regulating bypass valves are expensive. i managed to get one for pretty cheap but its finicky, gate valve is easier. a Y filter is also good, as is a bypass around each solenoid so you can keep glycol moving if a solenoid seizes up.

we used black box temp controllers so we can run programs. that meant i needed 120V solenoids. theoretically you could add transformer to drop to 12 or 24v if thats the only type of solenoid you can find, but you need one for each solenoid. cheaper for us to just go 120v.

you dont have to worry about 15psi. that's the rating on the glycol jackets for a typical cylindroconical fermenter tank. if you're using plastic tanks with metal cooling coils then the psi limit is based on whatever your fittings and clamps can handle.

i'd guess you dont need anything larger than 1" lines, possibly less. the smaller the lines, the higher the pressure. so it might take some tinkering to figure it all out. the other option is to run a VFD on your pumps so you can speed them up or slow them down as needed.

wiring up the pumps to go on/off with the compressor unit is a bit of a pain. it can be done, but its not easy.

if you are piecing together the unit yourself, make sure the compressor for your chiller is a medium temp unit. there are calculators online to help you figure out how much cooling you need in terms of BTUs on sites like pro refrigeration, G&D, etc.

test the pumps and fittings and lines with water, make sure no leaks. then insulate the lines as best you can. seal them up tight. in the tropics you have tons of humidity, you're gonna get condensation 100% of the time, and it gets dirty and nasty and is no bueno. insulate everything you can afford to do.

and it is probly a good idea to run all the temp controllers on one electrical circuit, and put a universal power supply/backup unit on that circuit. we kept having issues with out temp controllers, only to realize that they kept resetting themselves every time the power blinked off for a half second. the power is mexico isnt "clean" so you deal with this stuff alot. we just bought a home computer-sized backup and wired it inline to the controllers. no issues since then.

 

[SanPancho]

honestly, i would go with some inkbird or STC1000 controllers. they're cheaper. work just as well. we went with the blackbox ones because they can run programs, ramp down temp over time periods instead of just a 50F to 34F crash, etc. its VERY handy.

be careful with that glycol chiller. that's a draft system unit, meant to keep beer at about 38ish. ferment control glycol is typically at 28F. the BTU power of the unit goes down quite a bit as the temp of the glycol drops. you can still use it. but you'll likely take a long time to crash your beer into the 30s. not too big of a deal with only 3 fermenters, but it can be a pain. never hurts to future proof your system for expansion. also- the cooling coils have alot less surface area than a conical's glycol jacket, so there's less efficient cooling due to lower surface area. ask around on the nano forum of probrewer if your chiller is up to the task with that setup in the tropical heat. i know a few guys in costa rica and SE asia who had similar setups. they can probly tell you if the cooler can handle the load.

if you're handy, you can probly put a more powerful chiller system together yourself. you need a medium temp compressor, a heat exchanger, temp controller, and two pumps. a half size water barrel as reservoir. (in mex they're 15-20gals) insulate as needed. you'll likely be able to get more cooling power for same price. but its obviously more work.

lastly, look up your customs duties. mexico is 16%. ouch. but at least we can fit the small stuff in our car and drive it over. no way in hell you're getting that glycol chiller into the country as "personal goods". plus you might have to pay broker fees. it gets expensive. that's why i mentioned building your own chiller system from pieces you can source locally. ditto for the chiller lines. pvc is dirt cheap locally vs importing tubing. the little stuff adds up quick.