Glycol Chiller for Wort Cooling

[gometz]

After seeing how much more comfortable an electric system can be, I'm debating installing one in a spare corner I have available in a room behind my detached garage.

I can most likely get some 220V outlets installed where I want them, but I'd rather not install a water line and or drain (in the realm of possibility, at least the drain, water faucet would be more difficult).

I started thinking about if I could use a glycol system along with large enough water supplies, but am not sure if that's really feasible. A chiller big enough to be able to cool a batch down to 50 for a large seems to be massively expensive (I know that I would need to run a two step system in order to not damage the compressor).

My idea would be to use a two cooling tank strategy, one with 6-8 gallons, the other with 10. I'd turn on the chiller right as I start brewing with the hope of bringing it all down to 45 or so. Once the boil is complete I'd circulate the larger tank through my Wort cooler, while also keeping the chiller loop for that one going, then once a 10-15°F approach is reached swap the chiller and Wort cooler to the smaller tank to bring it down to final temp. I figure this could be done in about an hour using a 4,000 BTU chiller.

Has anyone done this before? I figure I'd also reduce my water waste significantly, which I guess would be a good thing as well.

 

[Jtvann]

After seeing how much more comfortable an electric system can be, I'm debating installing one in a spare corner I have available in a room behind my detached garage.

I can most likely get some 220V outlets installed where I want them, but I'd rather not install a water line and or drain (in the realm of possibility, at least the drain, water faucet would be more difficult).

I started thinking about if I could use a glycol system along with large enough water supplies, but am not sure if that's really feasible. A chiller big enough to be able to cool a batch down to 50 for a large seems to be massively expensive (I know that I would need to run a two step system in order to not damage the compressor).

My idea would be to use a two cooling tank strategy, one with 6-8 gallons, the other with 10. I'd turn on the chiller right as I start brewing with the hope of bringing it all down to 45 or so. Once the boil is complete I'd circulate the larger tank through my Wort cooler, while also keeping the chiller loop for that one going, then once a 10-15°F approach is reached swap the chiller and Wort cooler to the smaller tank to bring it down to final temp. I figure this could be done in about an hour using a 4,000 BTU chiller.

Has anyone done this before? I figure I'd also reduce my water waste significantly, which I guess would be a good thing as well.

I've got to ask ... are you trying to figure this delima out because you dont have a way to get rid of water from the basement? Trying to create a closed loop so that you dont have excess waste water?

Not to dodge your question, but I lived in an area with ground water in the 90-95 degree range and had to use an ice chest with pump to recirculate water. It worked very well. A closed system can work, so yes its possible with glycol to do it. But I would say very inefficient.

My advantage was the amount of heat absorbed in the phase change of ice to water. You won't have that with glycol. The massive volume of cold water that you'd need would likely be prohibitive.

The reason I ask my first question is because I have also struggled to get water out of my basement, and have tried to be creative in how to do it. I tried to minimize water loss and usage and ultimately ... it just doesn't work. You need to be able to get water out of the basement. With that figured out, cooling becomes easier using traditional means.

 

[gometz]

I've got to ask ... are you trying to figure this delima out because you dont have a way to get rid of water from the basement? Trying to create a closed loop so that you dont have excess waste water?

Not to dodge your question, but I lived in an area with ground water in the 90-95 degree range and had to use an ice chest with pump to recirculate water. It worked very well. A closed system can work, so yes its possible with glycol to do it. But I would say very inefficient.

My advantage was the amount of heat absorbed in the phase change of ice to water. You won't have that with glycol. The massive volume of cold water that you'd need would likely be prohibitive.

The reason I ask my first question is because I have also struggled to get water out of my basement, and have tried to be creative in how to do it. I tried to minimize water loss and usage and ultimately ... it just doesn't work. You need to be able to get water out of the basement. With that figured out, cooling becomes easier using traditional means.

The problem is partly because the room is far from a water source, so I'd need to run a bed water line and add a drain to it. On top of that, if I can reduce total water usage I figure why not (also avoid any additional chances to spill water everywhere in there). Not that it matters, it's a room attached to the detached garage, not a basement (not many basements in Houston).

To cool 5.5 gallons from 212 to 45 you need about 8,000 BTU, which is in the range of what a chiller can do on its own. The 15-20 gallons and two step method would act as a heat sink/temperature modulator. I did the basic math for it, and while I don't have the melting to help me, it *should* work. If nothing else I could oversize the chiller to try to get to a slush of ice (since posting this I've realized how much cheaper a DIY chill would be using a 8-10,000 BTU window AC unit).

Part of me wants to just pick up a cheap used unit and convert it, see how it does on my current system. But I haven't seen anyone try this really and hoping to see if anyone has experience.

 

[cfrazier77]

I tried it, it did not work well. I transferred into my conical at boiling. I can't remember if it was 5 or 10 gallons, but mostly I do 5. I took hours for my micromatic to bring it down. The temp of the reservoir, 4 to 5 gallons probably, shot up quickly and the chiller could not keep up with it well.

 

[mongoose33]

I feed my counterflow chiller with a garden hose; the output is also a garden hose.

You could do something similar, whether it's an immersion chiller, counterflow chiller, or even perhaps a plate chiller (though I'd not go that direction myself).

I think your idea above is a little kludgy; I think you'd be better off to find a way to get water to where you need it than kludge something together.

If you have two 6-gallon vessels, one composed of boiling wort, one composed of water at, say, 60 degrees, the best you can do chilling the one with the other is the average: 136 degrees. And that won't happen fast. The closer in temp the two get to each other, the slower the chilling.

A second tank at 46 degrees will also only get you the average of the two: 91 degrees, and again, as the two approach the same temp, the pace of chilling will slow dramatically.

Now, a glycol setup would help the second one, but IMO it's not the best approach.

The exception might be if you planned on using glycol to chill the fermenter after using it to chill the wort, but then are you going to ferment in that room as well?

*****

IMO, if you're going to go to the effort of adding 240-v power, you're only halfway there. You could add water easily (just with a hose feeding fixtures), and assuming you can get a drain installed, use a sump pump to eject water to wherever you want to dispose of it.

And at that point, you could put in a sink and allow for cleaning right there after the brewing is done.

Just trying to give you some other ideas.

 

[etk29321]

I typically do a hybrid version of this on my brewdays. The CFC with tap water gets me from 212 to ~80 and the chiller does the last few degrees. Typically that gets me to pitching temp in under an hour for lagers with a 10 gal batch. Trying to do it all with the chiller and a 10gal reservoir at 38f didn’t go any faster and really made the chiller work hard.

 

[gometz]

I feed my counterflow chiller with a garden hose; the output is also a garden hose.

You could do something similar, whether it's an immersion chiller, counterflow chiller, or even perhaps a plate chiller (though I'd not go that direction myself).

I think your idea above is a little kludgy; I think you'd be better off to find a way to get water to where you need it than kludge something together.

If you have two 6-gallon vessels, one composed of boiling wort, one composed of water at, say, 60 degrees, the best you can do chilling the one with the other is the average: 136 degrees. And that won't happen fast. The closer in temp the two get to each other, the slower the chilling.

A second tank at 46 degrees will also only get you the average of the two: 91 degrees, and again, as the two approach the same temp, the pace of chilling will slow dramatically.

Now, a glycol setup would help the second one, but IMO it's not the best approach.

The exception might be if you planned on using glycol to chill the fermenter after using it to chill the wort, but then are you going to ferment in that room as well?

*****

IMO, if you're going to go to the effort of adding 240-v power, you're only halfway there. You could add water easily (just with a hose feeding fixtures), and assuming you can get a drain installed, use a sump pump to eject water to wherever you want to dispose of it.

And at that point, you could put in a sink and allow for cleaning right there after the brewing is done.

Just trying to give you some other ideas.

Your mention of the average temp is kind of where I was going, but oversizing the reservoirs to 9 gallons or so, prechill both (so a total of 18 gallons) to 35-40, use the first to get down to about 115 (using a 10 degree approach limit) then the second should be able to get it down to about 80 (with a 10 degree approach limit again). This would be the math with only the pre-chilled water and no ongoing chilling (and only starting the water at 40 not 35).

Add in the continuous chilling and I could probably get it even lower, depending on the size of unit I have, if it takes an hour to cool everything that would be another 8000-10000 BTU removed, theoretically another 66 degrees from the entire thermal mass of 14.5 gallons.

I'm going to write another response when I have more time, I guess I didn't explain all of the details clearly.

 

[gometz]

To all, the details are below of what I propose. Please provide feedback on the idea:

1. Batch sizes 5.5 to 6 gallons
2. Two reservoirs, each 9 gallons capacity
3. 8,000 to 10,000 BTU AC unit converter to chiller with a 3-4 gallon glycol solution reservoir

Steps would be:

A. Use reservoir 1 (9 gallons at 40) to cool wort, leave chiller loop on it
B. Once the temperature difference is only 10 degrees switch to reservoir 2 (9 gallons at 40)
C. Switch chiller circuit to reservoir C

At no time is the glycol circuit being used to cool the wort directly.

 

[Jtvann]

To all, the details are below of what I propose. Please provide feedback on the idea:

1. Batch sizes 5.5 to 6 gallons
2. Two reservoirs, each 9 gallons capacity
3. 8,000 to 10,000 BTU AC unit converter to chiller with a 3-4 gallon glycol solution reservoir

Steps would be:

A. Use reservoir 1 (9 gallons at 40) to cool wort, leave chiller loop on it
B. Once the temperature difference is only 10 degrees switch to reservoir 2 (9 gallons at 40)
C. Switch chiller circuit to reservoir C

At no time is the glycol circuit being used to cool the wort directly.

I think the only thing any of us can say at this point is to try it. It's been fairly unanimous that it's not going to work as well as you've planned. Give it a try though and report back. Like my cousin vinnie said ... the laws of physics may just simply cease to exist in your brewery.

 

[cfrazier77]

There is one other thing to factor in as well. If you remove 5 boiling gallons worth of BTUs from your wort then it is going to go somewhere. That place is going to be the room you are in. You don't get anything for free. You may need to put a fan in there, or have the chiller outside of the room.

 

[Wayne1]

I think there is an easier way than trying to directly use the glycol to chill the wort down.

In pro systems in warm environments, they typically use a cold liquor tank. What you may want to do is obtain a 20-55 gallon container and install a chiller coil in it to connect to your glycol system. Fill the container with water and chill it to 40F. Use the chilled water and a pump to run through a CFC to chill your wort on the fly to the fermenter.

You can then route the warmed up water to another container. This can be used for you next brew or moved back to the CLT to be reused for chilling. Completely self contained, if you so desire.

Good luck,
Wayne

 

[gometz]

I think the only thing any of us can say at this point is to try it. It's been fairly unanimous that it's not going to work as well as you've planned. Give it a try though and report back. Like my cousin vinnie said ... the laws of physics may just simply cease to exist in your brewery.

Sorry if came off dismissive, it seems that I didn't explain the full plan well and most of the responses were reviewing something I wasn't proposing. That why while most are saying they don't think it will work, they were thinking of something else or just dismissing it outright.

I did the basic math but haven't done any heat transfer calculations, but for the price of a used window unit I may as well try it out when I have some time. I was hoping someone has had some direct experience trying this.

 

[LittleRiver]

Have you thought of using a small chest freezer, containing a large rectangular HDPE tank of cooling water? You could outfit it with a simple collar to accommodate in/out re-circulation lines. A 5 cu.ft. freezer is going to take up the same, or possibly less, floor space as what you are proposing, be easier to set up, and have the ability to be re-purposed into a food freezer or keezer (or be sold) if you change directions in the future.

 

[TheDJPhilMac]

I'm finding this post a few years after the original. Wondering the results of the ideas presented. Any updates?

I'm finding this based on a search of the same dilemma. I tried to follow along with some of the solutions. While I got the gist, you guys lost me with the math. It makes my head hurt. I'm not proud of this. Anyway, there's more than one way to skin a cat - I think I'd rather engineer an my idea, test the results and see where we end up.

My situation: I have a DIY glycol chiller, created with a converted window AC unit I found on Craigslist ($60). I use this to keep a converted cooler ($20) filled with a 1:4 glycol/water mix kept at 32 degrees as regulated by an inkbird itc-1000 I got off of Amazon (~ $20). I'm able to lager 10Gal batches in a 14Gal Blichmann Conical in a completely closed system. For a diferent post, but this has leveled up my homebrew game by orders of magnitude.

My thought was to simply connect and run the the cold glycol solution through the CFC and return it back to the resevoir, but I was concerned about the mixture impacting the CFC. Mainly becasue I couldn't find any vids where someone has done this on a home/DIY system before. I then realized that I have a couple of DIY immersion chillers that I built 'back in the day', one of which is about 50' of coiled copper with soldered garden hose fittings on the in and out. And because I like making things difficult I figured I use an old 20 gallon Home Depot Cooler to house the immersion chiller, along with enough cold water to cover a submersible pump. The rest of the cavity is filled with as many ice packs, ice, fake ice as I can fit.

So basically, with the immersion chiller sitting in cold water, the fully immersed pump's out will connect to the chillers in which will run from the bottom up to the chiller's out. The out connects to the CFC's in and flows from the top-down. The CFC's out is run back into the 20Gal cooler. The incoming water is obviously warmer, but I'm hoping to manually replace cold packs to keep the solution cold enough to get to pitching temp.

My primary use case is to (1) bring the wort to pitching temp. But very, very closely behind that is to (2) not waste as much ground water as I have in the past. I'm usually so disorganized and partly freaking out that I end up running the water down my driveway.

Based on the posts here I'm worried the returned water would be too warm so I'm thinking I could go from the CFC's out to a smaller copper immersion chiller (I have a few. Nobody wants these things anymore...) that will sit inside my glycol reservoir which again is at a constant 32.

I will test this with boiling water first. I guess my tertiary goal is to spend as few $$ as possible to make this work. Home Brewers end up with so much crap as they graduate techniques. If anybody is still following, I will post the results of this experiment back here.