Ginger buggin'.

[Mostly_Norwegian]

This is my first time trying on a recipe for scratch. Have used kits and done some additions within them to get something I wanted out the beer. So, has anyone here tried to introduce a Ginger bug into their recipe? I'm thinking about trying it out on a farmhouse inspired beer. Let the two fermentators meet up, and duke it out for my pleasure.

so far I'm pondering for a 5 gallon
3 # cara pils
3# white wheat
2, 3# of caramel wheat
8 oz flaked oat
4 oz flaked wheat
1 # piloncillo sugar
fwh 1 oz summit
continual addition 60 min 1, 2 oz sterling
possibly a late lme addition, or not. Can't decide if this should be a sipper or a drinker.
5 min to flame out 1 oz northern brewer
This will probably get wyeast 3522, and it'll have a fº range of 72 - 82 to play in.
Here's where I'm pondering when. On pitch, add the ginger bug which I have been letting do it's own thing and partying it up a bit so the two meet and , and maybe do a second bug addition at secondary so they get some after hours action in.
The bug I'm using is started with 2, 3 tsp ginger root to 2, 3 tsp piloncillo to 8 oz water and additions made until fermentation is active. In total about 6, 8 oz ginger root with equal weight in sugar to 32 oz water.
And then once they cool out, get on the the dry hop (or not, might seem pointless.)
Warrior, and then centennial.
This be bottled, so I'm thinking it'll be honey or piloncillo sugar. About 4 oz either way.

Looks to be an est og of 1.05 and a 1.009 on the fg at about 5.5 abv with 90.6 ibu. That's a drinkable face blaster. Hmm. That oughta team up with the ginger buggery and make some gurners happy.
Curious what some of your thoughts are about the recipe. What might be too much or needs more of. What other yeast might be applicable and what knowledge people might have on introducing fermentations to one another.

thanks

 

[Mostly_Norwegian]

Nothin?

 

[BigEd]

Nothin?

Have you done all-grain previously? That recipe is 55% crystal malt. Is that deliberate?

 

[GuldTuborg]

2, 3# of caramel wheat

continual addition 60 min 1, 2 oz sterling

Twice this kind of construction appears - I don't know what it means. Can you explain?

Regardless, I think this needs to be started over from scratch again, unless the idea is to let the bugs in the ginger eat the crystal malt stuff...in which case, there are still probably better ways to go about getting them longer chained sugars. I'd post this in the "Lambic..." section as well, and see if anyone there has used the bugs on ginger skins to ferment alongside sacc.

 

[goopyquill]

i'd cut the cara pils and caramel wheat to no more than 1# each and add 5# of 2 row or you wont get proper conversion

 

[Mostly_Norwegian]

continual means I'm adding over the ingredient over the course of that timeframe.
I'll move some of the billing around. thanks for the suggestion on the 2 row.
No, have not done full all grain. partials, late additions is about as far in as I have gotten.

 

[WhizardHat]

I don't know what a lot of your words mean, but you need a base grain. I think your efficiency would be maybe 30% without a base grain. Eitherway, you need a LOT less crystal malt, especially if you want this to taste remotely Belgian. I would use zero pounds of crystal malt, personally. Is this supposed to be a saison? Mostly pils malt, a splash of wheat, and Munich for color. Noble hops, Wyeast 3711, and ginger juice to secondary. That's what I'd do.

 

[GuldTuborg]

continual means...

My bad. I know what continual means. I do not understand what a "numeral, comma, space, numeral," in that order, means. For example, is "2, 3#" two and (roughly) one thirds pounds, or something else? I've never seen this kind of construction in my life.

That said, whatever it means, I think you most likely have to go back to the drawing board. Find a saison recipe in the recipes section that looks good, then if you need to tweak it to make it different, post the original and your changes back here. We'll help you tweak.

Also, read the online (old) version of "How to Brew." I'm not trying to be mean with this, but I think you need a good primer in how to draft all grain recipes, and what the functions of different types of malts are.

 

[Mostly_Norwegian]

It's pretty straight forward. 2# equals 2 lbs. 2, 3# equals 2 - 3 lbs.
From the "how to brew" perspective. This is not really a saison. It's just using that kind of yeast because I'm pretty sure my base temps will be in the mid to upper 70's during fermentation. From there on in, it's about working with what that overall profile looks like it offers and how I can use that with the rest and get the gingerroot to be up front like a reeds ginger beer.
With this though. I'm trying to utilize what these different grains offer as a stage for the ginger to do its thing on. In terms of that. I don't want the grains nor hops to really get top dog in this fight. I just want them to offer their space for the rest of the ingredients to give the ginger space to pop and kick.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense now.

OK, so I think the idea of a ginger-lacto fermentation alongside a standard fermentation is an interesting one. I've never done this before, but here are a few thoughts.

-It sounds like you're going to do each separately and then blend them at the end, yes? Are you going to arrest the ginger-lacto fermentation before blending? If not (which it sounds like from the OP), be ready for this to be very acidic.

-Make sure your ginger is non-irradiated. You might not have anything live on it otherwise.

-"Common brewing knowledge" states that hop bitterness and sourness do not often play nicely together. This is going to be sour, so you might want to consider not going crazy with the hops. Then again, as homebrewers, our raison d'être is to buck these trends. Explore this territory at your own risk.

-I'm still concerned about the grist. You're not going to get much conversion or attenuation with that recipe. I understand you have your reasons for using each grain, but can you explain them? There might be better options to meet the needs you have.

-Keep us posted if you go through with it. I'm kinda curious to see how it comes out.

 

[Mostly_Norwegian]

Made some revisions.
3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 32.9 %
3 lbs Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 32.9 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4 16.4 %
10.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 5 6.8 %
8.0 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 6 5.5 %
1.00 oz Summit [17.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 7 50.5 IBUs
1.50 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 33.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) [124.21 ml] Yeast 10 -
3.00 oz Ginger Root (Primary 12.0 days) Herb 11 -
8.0 oz Turbinado (10.0 SRM) Sugar 12 5.5 %
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 1.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Dry Hop 1.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.7 %
Bitterness: 84.0 IBUs
Est Color: 4.0 SRM

Overall about a 72% efficiency with the honey sugar, which I'm getting raw, so it'll add its own thing for the bottles set aside to leave alone.
Dialed back the hops a bit. boosted the sterling on the boil. Common brewing knowledge is that it depends on what hops are used. I suspect these guys might all get along.
Switched out the caramel wheat for a belgian, and added a spot of rye.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Looks much better. The wheat should soften it a bit, so it's not over the top. Rye and Sterling hops should add some spicy elements. It's different, that's for sure, but I think it has potential. In any case, it'll be a great experiment. Updates, with pictures along the way, would be great.

Oh, almost forgot. Do you have a plan for the mash schedule?

 

[Mostly_Norwegian]

That's kind of what I was hoping for. Different, but it's got that humm. Yeah. Give me another, that's sort of ****ing refreshing thing about it. Been taking some pictures of the gingerbeerplants as they come along. It's kind of meditative watching bits of ginger rise and fall as the bubbles rise.

 

[The_Doctor]

Personally, I would bring those IBUs way down if you're planning on bugs from the ginger. Sour and bitter is not tasty, brett and bitter is even worse. Even 20 IBU would be more than enough without the beer being sweet. Also, make a nice sized starter.

 

[pshow]

Why do folks think this will be a sour? I don't see anything to make me think it would be.

How did the brew turn out?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Why do folks think this will be a sour?

The ginger "bug." That stuff is covered in lacto.

 

[pshow]

But I make ginger bug soda all the time, and it's not even the slightest bit sour. I've used ginger bug to make beer too, when I've got more wort than fits in my carboy, and that isn't sour either.
I know it's supposed to be lacto, which is supposed to be sour, but I never even get a hint of it in my brews.

One thing I'd caution, as a ginger soda maker - watch your glass bottles carefully! Ginger seems to have high attenuation, and supposedly also has amylase enzymes, to eat residual starches, and I've had a couple glass bombs, with shards dug deep into my walls 3 feet away!

 

[burninator]

But I make ginger bug soda all the time, and it's not even the slightest bit sour. I've used ginger bug to make beer too, when I've got more wort than fits in my carboy, and that isn't sour either.
I know it's supposed to be lacto, which is supposed to be sour, but I never even get a hint of it in my brews.

True, but if you do it the way most people do, you're not getting anywhere near a full fermentation. You're getting a bit of lactic acid and enough CO2 to carbonate, but you're probably not letting the lactobacillus consume all the sugar in your drink. Were you to allow it to finish, you'd end up with something very dry, very acidic, and probably quite sour.

 

[krackin]

True, but if you do it the way most people do, you're not getting anywhere near a full fermentation. You're getting a bit of lactic acid and enough CO2 to carbonate, but you're probably not letting the lactobacillus consume all the sugar in your drink. Were you to allow it to finish, you'd end up with something very dry, very acidic, and probably quite sour.

Yes you will. I make sure that mine is backed with a hot ginger bite. I love it.

 

[pshow]

True, but if you do it the way most people do, you're not getting anywhere near a full fermentation. You're getting a bit of lactic acid and enough CO2 to carbonate, but you're probably not letting the lactobacillus consume all the sugar in your drink. Were you to allow it to finish, you'd end up with something very dry, very acidic, and probably quite sour.

huh, good to know! but then why hasn't my beer tasted sour either? it's done fermenting and carbonating. maybe it needs more aging? might be a nice way to end up with a sour without using bret!

also, anyone using a ginger bug have any problems with gelatinized goop? the last few have tasted decent, but totally gelatinized therefore not drinkable. i'm guessing the yeast got contaminated with something, but what? i'd like to be able to prevent it in the future.