getting very discouraged with this hobby, pls help...

[mmb]

Again, thanks for taking the time for your posts. I should have mentioned that the spring water I used was Poland Spring (sorry).

And yes, I am unhappy with my beer, and is why I'm seeking help. I could care less of what a couple of judges say, especially if I was happy with it. With the amount of time I've spent reading and researching and all the books I've read along with my brewing practices, I thought I would be making half-way decent beer.

According to the public water profile post of my water company, there is chlorine & chloromines in it but I read the Campden tablet would remove it?

Looking back at my notes on the IPA I did just before this batch with the grain bill pretty much identical (just more DME) I used all tap water and water additions very similar to the current one. I collected 6 gallons and added 1.75 tsp Gypsum, 1/4 tsp Calc Chloride, and 1/2 tsp epsom salt and 1/8 campden tablet and used it for both my mash and sparging (not too far off from my water additions for this batch).

I used the EZ water calculator and tried to match an IPA profile I found online. With my additions to my tap water here are the numbers that it came out with:


Calcium - 101
Mag - 13
Sodium - 18
Chloride - 55
Sulfate - 235

It also calculated a mash ph of 5.52.

My process is pretty dialed in so all the brewing numbers were pretty much identical to this current brew, as I always have a 5.75 LB grain bill. When I say brewing numbers I mean mash temp/sparge amounts and temps/ pitching temps under 70° as well as temp control on my ferm chamber.

Even though it's not the same IPA as this batch (almost identical, just more DME for a higher alc%), it pretty much tastes identical which I'm thinking it the same astringent off flavors which give a "muddy-earthy" taste even though they had quite different hop bills.

I know a lot of focus is looking at my water profile but is there anything in my brewing process that might be off. I mentioned this earlier but could it be my sparging? I sparge at 169° so I don't think it's too hot.

Not sure how to handle the oxidation issue either as I don't keg and don't have access to anything to purge CO2 with. That's why for this batch I thought I'd skip the secondary for the first time to try and keep it to a minimum.

Any other ideas? I'm at a loss...

Other than replacing your racking equipment or only using a hose filled with a no rinse sanitizer to rack with so that you don't include any possibilities of aeration in your racking, I would say, reading your posts, that you're very meticulous about your process. I've not known municipal water readings to be all that accurate and would get a second opinion from Ward Labs or another testing outfit. All the "off" mentions beyond oxidation in your posts could most likely be based in water.

How did your PM batches taste before you started adding water additions?

 

[Oginme]

The first thing I would do is to rebrew your recipe (which looks fine), using the Poland Spring water and NO additional water conditioning salts. Get some pH strips or a pH meter to check your mash pH and make sure that it is in the 5.2 to 5.6 range. If your pH is in that area, you should not be extracting any astringent flavors from the malts. Your sparge temperature seems fine, but check the pH of the 2nd runnings to make sure it is within a good range as well (not over 6.0 pH).

I brew with well water which is not too much different from the Poland Spring's analysis. I add very little to my waters for salts and do not try to match any particular water profile So far I have yet to have a drinkable brew and most come out very good (other's comments, not mine as I am too critical of even my best recipes). When I do add salts, I add it for specific effect (raising carbonate levels for a stout, slight increase to the sulfate content for a hoppier result, etc.). I made these changes only after brewing a recipe with my water unadulterated and the additions are very subtle.

 

[Pelican521]

Funny you should mention, I just replaced my bottling wand prior to this brew. I used to brew only with Poland Spring but that was when I was doing extract only.

I do have PH strips and checked my wort (cooled to room temp) and while not as completely accurate as strips are, it was within range.

I'm going to give this recipe another try with some small adjustments based on the feedback so far.
1. replace the carapils with more 2 row
2. use only Poland Spring water
3. remove all water additions except maybe 1/2 tsp of gypsum
4. check and calibrate my thermometers and check to make sure my STC is giving an accurate reading. I was thinking a good way to test this is fill up a container with water/attach the sensor with bubble wrap to the container and drop a thermometer in the water to check.

Come to think of it, I think I used my tap water for most (if not all) of my IPAs while doing partial mashing. maybe there's something there and why I think I'll go the Poland Spring route.

the only other comment that both judges mentioned is the hop astringency, can anyone elaborate how that would happen?

 

[kingwood-kid]

I used the EZ water calculator and tried to match an IPA profile I found online. With my additions to my tap water here are the numbers that it came out with:

Calcium - 101
Mag - 13
Sodium - 18
Chloride - 55
Sulfate - 235

I'd use RO water and salts to build some water that is about 2/3 of what you have above. Some people love sulfates at 300+, but I'd go for 150-200 and focus on controlling your pH for both mash and sparge. As long as your sparge pH is in the right range, the temp doesn't matter. Yes, you can dissolve more tannins in hot water than cold, but they'll only come out of the grain in higher-pH conditions. Were it not so, triple-decocted German beers would be pretty gross.

Do you brew beers other than IPAs? Are they good? If you brew satisfactory dark beers, I'm even more sure it's the water. Stouts can hide a lot of brewing errors, but large quantities of dark malts will fix a lot of pH problems.

 

[Clonefan94]

Do you have a water profile on the spring water that was added. Depending on where it comes from, it can be crazy full of minerals. Spring water should be just that. They have tapped a spring and bottle it straight from the source. Probably has no chlorine in it, but if you added gypsum, you might be way overboosting the mineral content of the water.

 

[J187]

Funny you should mention, I just replaced my bottling wand prior to this brew. I used to brew only with Poland Spring but that was when I was doing extract only.

I do have PH strips and checked my wort (cooled to room temp) and while not as completely accurate as strips are, it was within range.

I'm going to give this recipe another try with some small adjustments based on the feedback so far.
1. replace the carapils with more 2 row
2. use only Poland Spring water
3. remove all water additions except maybe 1/2 tsp of gypsum
4. check and calibrate my thermometers and check to make sure my STC is giving an accurate reading. I was thinking a good way to test this is fill up a container with water/attach the sensor with bubble wrap to the container and drop a thermometer in the water to check.

Come to think of it, I think I used my tap water for most (if not all) of my IPAs while doing partial mashing. maybe there's something there and why I think I'll go the Poland Spring route.

the only other comment that both judges mentioned is the hop astringency, can anyone elaborate how that would happen?

Why spring water? It's a variable. It's a non-constant source of minerals. Why not use your water with slight adj or DI and build it up?

You ever go to a liquor store and see the "mystery six pack"... a sixer in a brown bag and you have no idea what's in it? That's what spring water is to your brewing process.

I know Poland Spring is supposed to be low in minerals, but why pay for water that you aren't sure what's in it, when you can use the water you already pay for and slightly adjust it? Besides, if it's true that PS has almost zero calcium, you'll end up wanting to add to that as it is. You say others have said your water is good... why not roll with it? Do you want to post your water profile here?

 

[kingwood-kid]

Poland Spring posts their full water report on their website. It's almost a blank slate, perfect for brewing since you can tailor it how you want. I'm pretty sure the RO water I buy from my local machine has a higher mineral content than Poland Spring.

 

[Pelican521]

Attached is a pic of the Poland Spring water profile.

Here is my tap water profile:
Calcium - 12.8
Mag - 2.9
Sodium - 17.6
Chloride - 22.9
Sulfate - 18.8
Hardness - 43.9
Alkalinity - 16

Would it make sense to use my tap water for stouts and the Poland Spring for IPAs (with a bit of gypsum)?

I don't know of anywhere that sells RO water, I didn't see it in my grocery stores here.

I'm pretty confused now. I would have to say, the last beer I brewed that was pretty good was an all extract kit and a brown ale (i used Poland Spring water).

 

[brewkinger]

Extract brewing and all grain are 2 different animals when it comes to water profiles.
Extract is kinda fool proof ( if the water tastes good to drink then it will make good beer)
AG depends on the minerals in the water to give the beer it's characteristics.

Not an even comparison.

Your tap water profile is missing some data. pH? Hardness?

I will reiterate for you to look into a water profile calculator and it will help you tremendously.


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[henchman24]

Extract brewing and all grain are 2 different animals when it comes to water profiles.
Extract is kinda fool proof ( if the water tastes good to drink then it will make good beer)
AG depends on the minerals in the water to give the beer it's characteristics.

Not an even comparison.

Your tap water profile is missing some data. pH? Hardness?

I will reiterate for you to look into a water profile calculator and it will help you tremendously.

This.

Your water looks pretty good from what we know. Some minor adjustments to it with gypsum and calc chloride should do the trick without much else. IMO the 2 tsp of gypsum would be way too much for my taste. Just a semi-educated guess without running it through a calculator, .75tsp of gypsum (maybe a touch more) and .5tsp of calc chloride would be pretty close to my preference (yours will probably differ).

With the mash are you adjusting the ph with the salt and not using any acid? I had a beer turn out with a very mineral taste because I did that once and quickly switched over to acids to help with the ph.

 

[J187]

Attached is a pic of the Poland Spring water profile.

Here is my tap water profile:
Calcium - 12.8
Mag - 2.9
Sodium - 17.6
Chloride - 22.9
Sulfate - 18.8
Hardness - 43.9
Alkalinity - 16

Would it make sense to use my tap water for stouts and the Poland Spring for IPAs (with a bit of gypsum)?

I don't know of anywhere that sells RO water, I didn't see it in my grocery stores here.

I'm pretty confused now. I would have to say, the last beer I brewed that was pretty good was an all extract kit and a brown ale (i used Poland Spring water).

Your water not only looks good for either style, but with minimum adjustments. Personally, I'd save the money on Poland Springs. It is really low on minerals, it's damn near Pilsen in a bottle, but regardless, why spend the money? In fact, your water has some useful calcium.

For an IPA, I'd acidify your mash with anywhere from .5-1.0 ml/gal of lactic acid. That will give you a PH between 5.2-5.4 assuming you have no dark malts in your IPA. The only adjustment I'd make is a little gypsum, like .5 g/gal if you had a 4gal mash and 4gal sparge. You'd have to adjust depending on your grist ratio and recipe, but it would be really close to that. That will get you about 44g Calcium, which is perfect since you'll get some malt anyway, and low mg 2.9, again, right on. Sodium well below 100ppm at 17.6 (we didn't add any sodium to the base). Both sulfate and chloride would be under 100ppm, although sulfate would be 90ish and chloride 20 which is nice for an IPA and might slightly accentuate the hops.

For a dark beer like stout, I'd simply skip the lactic, whereas the dark malts should acidify enough to lower the PH to the right range, and instead of getting your calcium from a Gypsum addition, I'd get it from a Calcium Chloride addition - that way you will still get the Ca but rather than adding Sulfate as the other half of the compound, you'll be adding chloride, which will accent the malt rather than the bitter (sulfates).

 

[Savage06]

Leaving a beer on the trub is a demon that has been beaten to death and beyond here. On a homebrewing level autolysis is a nonentity. If you magically manage to have it appear it is EXTREMELY evident. Fusels are from fermentation temps getting too hot.

Timing shouldn't factor in fresher is better in an IPA. You're most likely have water or PH issues of some sort.

I'm not sure less than 1% ABV boost would cause a hot alcohol flavor... and Dextrose is not uncommon in IPA recipes. However... he does mention that he leaves it 3+ weeks in primary while dry hopping. Yeast being left too long in trub CAN cause fusel alcohols- or too much yeast as well.

I wouldn't drop minerals or do anything water related until I hear more about the spring water. Spring water is, as Forest Gump would approve, like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get. That would be my starting point.

With regard to cellaring.... that might be fine for your stout, but this is an IPA he's talking about. The hop aroma and flavor will fade LONG before that. In fact, these are beers best to drink ASAP to some extent. Besides, cellaring his beer for a year isn't going to fix the process that he thinks might be broken.

 

[madscientist451]

I'd try simplifying everything, removing variables. Get rid of DME and sugar, just use grain. Just use 100% Poland spring, no additives, or your local water.
Run a 2.5 gallon test batch to save some costs, tweak it the second time, maybe work on the water profile, run it a third time with a few more minor changes, eventually you'll get dialed in, keep good notes, have fun brewing and drinking.

 

[Heineken]

I am the only judge that matters when it comes to my beer. It doesn't really matter what a judge or anyone else thinks. You can always find people to criticize you and the things you do.

 

[rhythmsteve]

1) don't get frustrated
2) use Campden tablets In tap water to get rid of any chlorine
3) go all grain and dump the DME, I have found that it adds a slight chalky taste, depending on how old it is
4) absolutely make sure of your temp at yeast pitch, I destroyed a stout because my temp was 5 degrees higher, and it came out with a heavy astringent smell


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[jbaysurfer]

I am the only judge that matters when it comes to my beer. It doesn't really matter what a judge or anyone else thinks. You can always find people to criticize you and the things you do.

And many of us do. That's the nature of being competitive. You find yourself wanting validation from more objective sources then your own ego.

 

[Pelican521]

Based on most of the feedback here, It looks I'm taking my mash PH to the wrong side of the spectrum with my water additions and messing up all my beers. I'm not very knowledgable with water chemistry and could use a bit of help (as well as doing some more reading).

Say I was to go with my tap water and my IPA recipe, and as J187 mentioned, need to acidify my mash, how do I do this? My mash and sparge is about 2 gallons each. How much lactic acid would I need for my mash and would I use the same amount for my sparge?

And if I was to add some a bit of gypsum, how would I do this? Would it go in after I collect all my wort from my mash and sparge in my brew kettle?

And how about doing a stout with my water, J187 mentioned to add some calcium chloride. How much would I need for a basic chocolate oatmeal stout recipe?

I'm asking about the stout because that's the other style (and nut browns) I like to brew.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback, very helpful stuff.

 

[Savage06]

Diving into water chemistry is a deep subject...puns aside.

To do it properly you need your source water profile. I am in NYC which is very very soft.

Knowing this and your malt bill with appropriate SRM values of it you can use this calculator, choose a target water profile and play with the salt additions from there and given all of this and your water volumes the calculator will tell you what you need to acidify your mash. You can use acid malt or an acid addition.

You can do all of this here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

Again it won't be 100% accurate unless you are measuring with a PH meter, but they are fickle to care for and expensive so it most likely won't be your first purchase. Until I pick one up I have faith in the software and math others have done. It won't be perfect but it will get close.

Also I have done trail days at commercial breweries and brewing salt wise they mostly just add gypsum and calcium chloride. If my beer is lighter I will add lactic acid as recommended by the calculator to hit 5.2ph. To this point my beers have been clean and better for the most part.

Based on most of the feedback here, It looks I'm taking my mash PH to the wrong side of the spectrum with my water additions and messing up all my beers. I'm not very knowledgable with water chemistry and could use a bit of help (as well as doing some more reading).

Say I was to go with my tap water and my IPA recipe, and as J187 mentioned, need to acidify my mash, how do I do this? My mash and sparge is about 2 gallons each. How much lactic acid would I need for my mash and would I use the same amount for my sparge?

And if I was to add some a bit of gypsum, how would I do this? Would it go in after I collect all my wort from my mash and sparge in my brew kettle?

And how about doing a stout with my water, J187 mentioned to add some calcium chloride. How much would I need for a basic chocolate oatmeal stout recipe?

I'm asking about the stout because that's the other style (and nut browns) I like to brew.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback, very helpful stuff.

 

[Pelican521]

Ok, so here's an update...

I went ahead and did an ice bath test for my thermometer and it was 5 degrees off! So when I was thinking I was mashing at 152 it was actually 157 and 176 for my sparge temp. Not to mention pitching at 5 degrees higher as well.

Not sure if this will be the magic bullet in improving my beers, but I'm sure it will help greatly.

I'm now in the process of testing my temp controller with my brew bucket filled with 5 gallons of water.

Thanks!

 

[kingwood-kid]

5 gallons of water won't generate heat the way 5 gallons of beer will, so it's not a perfect test. But fermenting 5 degrees too hot is usually a bad idea. Your beer fermented out pretty dry, so it doesn't look like the mash had a large effect, but it will change the beer. Sparging too hot is only harmful if your pH is too high, which goes back to the water chemistry questions. I'm glad you're on your way to improving your beer.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I used the EZ water calculator and tried to match an IPA profile I found online. With my additions to my tap water here are the numbers that it came out with:


Calcium - 101
Mag - 13
Sodium - 18
Chloride - 55
Sulfate - 235

It also calculated a mash ph of 5.52.
Any other ideas? I'm at a loss...

You're going to need lactic acid or acidulated malt to bring your mash into range for the grist you're mashing.

 

[Pelican521]

Yep, I know the water won't generate heat. I just want to now use my calibrated thermometer to see if the water is the same temp that my temp controller says it's supposed to be.

 

[J187]

If you use ice water, make sure you stir it and let it sit for a few mintutes. For it to hit 32, it needs to be well mixed and have a few minutes contact time.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

This may not be much help to you, but I brewed about 10 all-grain IPAs in a row, all were nice to drink but had a tendency to end up tasting similar and all darkened significantly after entering the bottle.

So, my not-really-helpful solution to brewing better IPAs? Keg them.... Worked incredibly for me, and while no one here can really know what your problem is, I would venture a guess that oxidation is responsible for the majority of what you feel is missing

 

[Pelican521]

hmmm, good point as mine always darken after being bottled for a while and all end up with a similar taste.

At bottling time, I was like, finally! this IPA is fantastic! I should have drank all 5 gallons right then and there.

So now my question is for those who bottle IPAs are they as good as you would like them to be?

Just trying to see if it's even possible to achieve a great IPA if one bottles.

 

[simnick]

Given the expense commercial brewers go to with auto purging, special sealing, bottling lines, I expect it is difficult to pull off as a home brewer. Based on pro brewer comments, hoppy IPAs seem to have really upped the sensitivity to oxygen in beer, so no one noticed the issue with (let's say) stouts. I know my Kegged IPAs are always better. And I find many kegged commercial IPAs are better than bottled as well.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I too have given up trying to bottle condition IPAs for the same reason. Even the sediment turns dark brown almost black after it sits in the bottle conditioning for a few weeks.

The taste is not quite astringent, but ... off. Hop character is reduced to simply bitter, and no amount of aging has corrected the matter.

If I ever decide to go back to bottling I will do so from the keg or devise a procedure to bottle under a blanket of CO2.

 

[Pelican521]

Well, maybe it's time to look into kegging... Can anyone recommend an inexpensive novice kegging system. In novice, I mean easy to use with not too many bells and whistles. Maybe something modular that I can add too down the road?

Thanks for the help!

 

[kingwood-kid]

You could try the Party Pig, which is to kegging what partial mash is to all-grain. It only holds about 2 gallons, but it's pretty cheap, doesn't need a CO2 source (other than the pouches) and easily fits into your fridge--it takes up less than half of a shelf. But it's not really something you can build on unless you just want to buy more of them.

 

[NaplesVin]

Well, maybe it's time to look into kegging... Can anyone recommend an inexpensive novice kegging system. In novice, I mean easy to use with not too many bells and whistles. Maybe something modular that I can add too down the road?

Thanks for the help!

I am a fairly new brewer and I was kinda day dreaming of the future.... With that being said I've had my eyes on this kit... but it has everything you'd need which can be a problem since it seems you have everything minus the kegging equipment.... http://www.homebrewing.org/Beginning-Homebrew-Kit-Upgrade-4-with-keg_p_1707.html

I kinda have been bouncing around these sites looking at their various kegging systems...
Midwest supplies: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/kegging.html
Northern Brewer: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/kegging
Homebrewing: http://www.homebrewing.org/Kegging-Equipment_c_23.html

They have treated me very well so far... Also, if you have any local home brewing shops you should stop in and see what they have to offer! Good luck

 

[plumber_bob]

I've skimmed a few responses but not all.
My main thinking is,... do your friends and others who try your beer like it?
I never enter my beer in contests. I judge my beer by the reaction I get from real people. plus keep in mind that there are 2 kinds of beer drinkers. The ones that think that the BMC types rule,... and then the true beer drinkers.

Also keep track of the fact that if YOU like your beer, then you're good. You should be brewing for you 1st! IMO. I do. I brew to get beer I like,... I don't care if others like it,... but it's good if they do.

I can relate to wanting to gauge your brews as compared to others,... but the competition thing is something I have issues with in the home brewing arena.
People worry too much about what others think.

I've found that when I brew what I like, I like what I've brewed. End of story.

After all I ain't trying to start a brewery, or compete. I just wanna brew some damned good brew for me.

pb

 

[petey_c]

Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.

Everybody seems to forget the second part of this expression, "...everyone has one and they all stink!"

 

[riderkb]

The judges comment about a mineral taste may have lead you down the wrong path. In my experience, water chemistry makes relatively subtle changes in your beer. If you have a serious flavor flaw then I would bet that it a fermentation problem. Checking your thermometer was a good move.
To isolate the problem you might consider brewing a very simple, medium gravity ale and concentrate on getting nice fresh malt favors. You can't exactly do a PM SMASH, but that is the right idea. You can pretty much eliminate yeast problems by using dry yeast, too. In the old days dry yeast was dreadful, but today's S-05 is very good. The only good reason to use a liquid now is to get unusual strains that are not available dry.
A four pound mash plus three pounds DME, two or three hop additions, a packet of yeast and you are good to go. Try to get it into bottles ASAP and skip the dry hopping. Strong fermentation and freshness are key.
Are you using an oxygen stone? If not then get one, it makes a huge difference. Got to keep the yeast happy. If the yeast ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!


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[Marc77]

Everybody seems to forget the second part of this expression, "...everyone has one and they all stink!"

If we're going that route, you forgot the 3rd part. ", but mine."