Getting Belgian yeast to do its thing

[gio]

I'm planning on brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone and I'm working on figuring out how much yeast (Wyeast 3787) I should pitch.

It's a high gravity beer (OG 1.092) so I want to make sure I pitch enough. At the same time I've heard that underpitching will cause the yeast to develop more esters which is what is desired in this style of beer. On the other hand, breweries such as Ommegang overpitch yeast and get the same effect. I've also read that I shouldn't aerate the wort for the same reason. The lack of oxygen will strain the yeast and cause more ester production. Again, I'm scared to do so on such a high gravity beer.

Mr Malty's calculator recommends 1.5 liters of shaken starter for my 3.3 gallon batch. I'm thinking about perhaps going as low as 1 liter. Anyone have any experience with belgian yeast strains and getting them to produce the esters you want? I made my first Belgian (OG 1.072) with 2 Wyeast smack packs, fermented warm, and got almost no fruity esters at all.

 

[Demfer]

Hi Gio,

I am a Brewer from Brighton, MA. I have used this yeast strain for many many years now. It used to be one that gave me many headaches but I think over time I have dominated this beast sort-of-speak.

Here is a few tips based on your data:

1) Make a 2L starter ~3 days before you brew. Throw it in the fridge and let it settle until you get a nice packed yeast cake. I always decant the starter with this strain.

2) Temp control is so very key. I made a number of batches that didn't hit my desired attenuation and flavor profiles until I was able to control consistent temp.
A) Pitch at under 70F, I always pitch at ~65F.
B) Over the first 24-36 hours you must allow it to gradually climb. I sometimes get to ~72-74F with this strain if I keep it in a warm dark area of my Apt.
C) At day 2, 48hr mark you must jack up the temp to 80+ and keep it from dropping below 80 until fermentation is complete ( I give Aprox 2 weeks ) When I am lucky I get aprox 77% attenuation.

3) If doing a secondary be very careful not to oxidize, my experience is that the Belgians tend to oxidize quickly if there is too much head space in your secondary container. I always use C02 to pure the space in secondary after transfer. BUT I have recently been doing my big Belgians in primary for a few months and they come out great.

4) Aeration - when pouring your cooled wort into the fermenter, use a funnel with a strainer in it, the pouring and falling action of the wort is sufficient to aerate it as well as a little shaking to get the yeast mixed up.

Also you're recipe and fermentables will also make changes to the fermentation profile. Whats your grain bill like?

 

[coypoo]

Belgian breweries get crazy attenuation (like 88%) by using lots of sugar in their beers. Dont be afraid of using 3 lbs of sugar in your beer, the yeast does a good job of handling it.

 

[sjbeerman]

White labs and wyeast both have a chart that shows the flavor profiles created by their Belgian strains at different fermentation temperatures. Both are shown in Brew Like a Monk, but unfortunately I don't have access to that book right now and I can only locate the White Labs chart online. According to White Labs, fermenting between 75-85 F will produce a fruity, moderate phenolic, and solvent flavor. To reduce the phenols and solvent flavor, it recommends fermenting between 67-75 F. I would still recommend pitching the correct amount of yeast or just slightly underpitching.

 

[gio]

Thanks Demfer for the advice. I'm brewing the recipe in this thread (traditional version):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/pious-westvleteren-12-style-quad-multiple-147815/

The grain bill for 5.5 gallons is roughly:
8lb pale
8lb pilsner
3lb D2 Belgian Candi Syrup
OG: 1.092

I've scaled the grain amounts by 40% for a 3.3 gallon batch.

I plan on added the 3lb of candi syrup all at once at the end of the boil (not waiting until the secondary) as the designer of that recipe says he now does.

1) I made the starter last night and I plan on brewing on Saturday or Sunday. I plan on decanting and just pitching the slurry. I plan on pitching about 1.25 liters for 3.3 gallons (before decanting).

2) That pretty much matches my temperature plan (and matches the advice given in the thread I linked above). I'm going to pitch at 65, let it rise, and then use my space heater/closet method to get the temp to rise to 80 after a couple of days.

3) Thanks, I'll be extra careful to avoid oxidation. I'm going to secondary the 3.3 gallon batch in a 3 gallon carboy so It should pretty much fill the whole carboy to the top.

4) Usually I seal up the fermenter and shake it around vigorously to aerate it. I won't do that this time.

 

[gio]

White labs and wyeast both have a chart that shows the flavor profiles created by their Belgian strains at different fermentation temperatures. Both are shown in Brew Like a Monk, but unfortunately I don't have access to that book right now and I can only locate the White Labs chart online. According to White Labs, fermenting between 75-85 F will produce a fruity, moderate phenolic, and solvent flavor. To reduce the phenols and solvent flavor, it recommends fermenting between 67-75 F. I would still recommend pitching the correct amount of yeast or just slightly underpitching.

I have Brew Like a Monk although I haven't looked at it recently. I should go back and read it again. Thanks.

 

[DannPM]

I'm planning on brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone and I'm working on figuring out how much yeast (Wyeast 3787) I should pitch.

It's a high gravity beer (OG 1.092) so I want to make sure I pitch enough. At the same time I've heard that underpitching will cause the yeast to develop more esters which is what is desired in this style of beer. On the other hand, breweries such as Ommegang overpitch yeast and get the same effect. I've also read that I shouldn't aerate the wort for the same reason. The lack of oxygen will strain the yeast and cause more ester production. Again, I'm scared to do so on such a high gravity beer.

Mr Malty's calculator recommends 1.5 liters of shaken starter for my 3.3 gallon batch. I'm thinking about perhaps going as low as 1 liter. Anyone have any experience with belgian yeast strains and getting them to produce the esters you want? I made my first Belgian (OG 1.072) with 2 Wyeast smack packs, fermented warm, and got almost no fruity esters at all.

I underpitched on a high-gravity wort (A Belgian Dubbel SG of about 1.073) I just did a while ago and although it smelled wonderful bubbling out of the airlock from the esters, after racking it to my bottling bucket though, the unleashed smell of fusel alcohol was enough to make me feel like I racking moonshine, not a Belgian Dubbel. I braved up, tasted some, and immediately spit it out; I couldn't get that taste out of my mouth for the rest of the night, nasty stuff.

If you want to underpitch, do it slightly, if at all, like you mention above.

You could also try pitching the reccomended amount and raising the temp to the hgiher end of the yeast range; that will also provide more esters.

Another way is to increase the Co2 pressure while in fermentation. This is trickier, but you could rig up an airlock that only releases pressure after x many pounds have built up. You wouldn't have to worry about air getting in as the pressure released would be enough positive pressure to keep any airborne bugs from getting in.

Let us know what you decide on and how it turns up man!

 

[DannPM]

Also man, if you're doing all grain, after your scarification rest in the upper 140's (assuming you're going this low to get the gravity you want), lower the tempreture of the mash tun contents to 95-104 range. This will activate the Maltase enzyme which converts maltose to glucose. The yeast can rip through glucose much faster, and this will result in higher ester formations.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Also man, if you're doing all grain, after your scarification rest in the upper 140's (assuming you're going this low to get the gravity you want), lower the tempreture of the mash tun contents to 95-104 range. This will activate the Maltase enzyme which converts maltose to glucose. The yeast can rip through glucose much faster, and this will result in higher ester formations.

This enzyme isn't denatured by the higher temps of the "scarification" (haha, actually, that's kinda neat..I want to make a scarred beer now:rockin rest?

 

[gio]

Also man, if you're doing all grain, after your scarification rest in the upper 140's (assuming you're going this low to get the gravity you want), lower the tempreture of the mash tun contents to 95-104 range. This will activate the Maltase enzyme which converts maltose to glucose. The yeast can rip through glucose much faster, and this will result in higher ester formations.

The recipe calls for a decoction mash (ugh), with a rest at 151 and a rest at 159. Dropping the temp is going to make things a little bit more complicated and I'm not sure I'm ready to make my first decoction mash anymore complicated than it looks like it's going to be, lol.

 

[gio]

I underpitched on a high-gravity wort (A Belgian Dubbel SG of about 1.073) I just did a while ago and although it smelled wonderful bubbling out of the airlock from the esters, after racking it to my bottling bucket though, the unleashed smell of fusel alcohol was enough to make me feel like I racking moonshine, not a Belgian Dubbel. I braved up, tasted some, and immediately spit it out; I couldn't get that taste out of my mouth for the rest of the night, nasty stuff.

If you want to underpitch, do it slightly, if at all, like you mention above.

You could also try pitching the reccomended amount and raising the temp to the hgiher end of the yeast range; that will also provide more esters.

Another way is to increase the Co2 pressure while in fermentation. This is trickier, but you could rig up an airlock that only releases pressure after x many pounds have built up. You wouldn't have to worry about air getting in as the pressure released would be enough positive pressure to keep any airborne bugs from getting in.

Let us know what you decide on and how it turns up man!

What yeast were you using for your dubbel out of curiousity?

 

[DannPM]

What yeast were you using for your dubbel out of curiousity?

I was using Belgian Ardennes 3522

Don't let that turn you off from that one though. I underpitched by a ton into a high gravity wort @ like 70-73 degrees, big mistake!!

 

[DannPM]

This enzyme isn't denatured by the higher temps of the "scarification" (haha, actually, that's kinda neat..I want to make a scarred beer now:rockin rest?

Haha, yeah typo there. That's what happens when you're typing fast at work right before you get out!

After the saccrification rest at upper 140's low 150's for the Beta Amylase, cool the mash back down to a temp so that a dry strike of new malt will get to the mash to 95-104, and hold there for a saccrification rest for the newly added Maltase enzymes can work on the previously generated maltose. You could then go ahead and add more hot liquor to bring it up to another saccrification rest in the 140's again to convert the new starches into maltose so you don't get a starchy mess in your bottle

It seems like a lot of effort but I can control the temperature of my mash tun a lot better than I can control the temperature of my carboy :cross:

http://www.justbrewitjax.com/files/Starch_Conversion.doc

I've never done this, it's all just stuff I've been reading so if anyone does do this I'd love to know how it turns out! (I plan on trying this mash schedule myself in a few months)

 

[DannPM]

According to the same paper (http://www.justbrewitjax.com/files/Starch_Conversion.doc) an enzyme called Invertase or Saccharase is also present in the mash and is optimum at 140f which converts sucrose to glucose and fructose (which will produce more esters from the yeast than maltose)

You can then, to get the desired esters, do an invertase saccrification rest at 140, add the desired amount of table sugar (sucrose), let it work it's magic, and violia! You have added glucose.

Seems easier than inverting a sugar syrup with heat and acid!

 

[GuldTuborg]

Edit: Nevermind, you covered the addition of new grain/mash. I missed that detail the first time around. It is pretty crucial, though, as maltase apparently denatures quickly at 115F.

 

[DannPM]

According to the wiki here, maltase is denatured at 115F. So you can't cool the wort down and expect it to work. You need to use the double mash procedure below. I thought something struck me as a bit odd. From the wiki, bold text mine:

Maltase converts maltose into glucose. It is therefore an important enzyme for the yeast. But it is also present in malt. But since its temperature optimum is between 95ºF (35ºC) and 104ºF (40ºC) [Narziss, 2005] and it is being deactivated above 115ºF (45ºC), this enzyme does not play any significant role in most mashing schedules since higher temperature rests are necessary to genate glucose for this enzyme.

It is however used in a mashing schedule developed by Markus Hermann from the Weihenstephan brewing school in Germany. This mash converts half the mash to get a large amount of glucose. After that conversion is complete, it is mixed with the remaining mash to achieve a rest temperature of 95ºF (35ºF) where the maltase converts the now existing maltose to glucose. After that the whole mash is again run through a regular mashing schedule to convert the remaining starch to maltose and dextrins. The result is a wort with a very high glucose content (about 40% of the fermentable sugars). Yeast fermenting such a wort will generate more esters, a property that can be used to produce German wheat beers with a high ester content.

yeah I missed that on my first run through the wiki. I had to read closer later to see you need an additional grist infusion

 

[gio]

According to the same paper (http://www.justbrewitjax.com/files/Starch_Conversion.doc) an enzyme called Invertase or Saccharase is also present in the mash and is optimum at 140f which converts sucrose to glucose and fructose (which will produce more esters from the yeast than maltose)

You can then, to get the desired esters, do an invertase saccrification rest at 140, add the desired amount of table sugar (sucrose), let it work it's magic, and violia! You have added glucose.

Seems easier than inverting a sugar syrup with heat and acid!

Can't you just add corn sugar which is glucose instead of table sugar (sucrose)?

 

[DannPM]

Can't you just add corn sugar which is glucose instead of table sugar (sucrose)?

I thought it was dextrose as sold in homebrew?

 

[devilishprune]

I thought it was dextrose as sold in homebrew?

Dextrose is another name of the common isomer of glucose, D-glucose (aka just regular glucose).

Another way is to increase the Co2 pressure while in fermentation. This is trickier, but you could rig up an airlock that only releases pressure after x many pounds have built up. You wouldn't have to worry about air getting in as the pressure released would be enough positive pressure to keep any airborne bugs from getting in.

Actually, increased pressure DECREASES ester (and fusel alcohol) production.

 

[kanzimonson]

I'd recommend a normal pitching rate. The monks may be able to get away with underpitching because they're so in tune with their beers, their yeast, and their process. It's gotta mean something that they do it the same way every time.

My preferred strain is 1762 and I pretty much treat it like a typical ale fermentation until the end. Pitch at 62, free rise to 68, and then when things begin to slow down I slowly ramp to 75-78 until it finishes.

I've been getting a pleasant mix of fruit and spice in mine. The fruit is mostly cherry and a little banana, the spice is light clove and cinnamon.