Getting an RO system - have a question!

[nudarkshadowl]

Morning guys and gals! I am getting a 5 stage RO system in couple days for my soon to be here AG sculpture. I plan to run the RO product out line to the garage so I can fill a 35 gallon HDPE/BPA free food safe storage tank. The tank will have an RO float that will turn off the system once my storage tank is full. The system has an auto shut off and check valve, so the float should apply adequate back pressure to trigger the shut off.

My question is, can I still use the pressure tank that came with the system in addition to the storage tank or would doing so cause the system to shut off once the smaller 3.2 gallon pressure tank is full. I was going to plumb the storage tank in the garage off of the product out line (I have no need for a faucet), but I don't know if I need to plug/bypass the 3.2 gallon storage tank and just run the RO system direct to the 35 gallon tank, or include the pressure tank. Any advice would be great! Cheers!

 

[cfrazier77]

You can use both. The pressure tank will not fill until your big tank if full and the float valve shuts that water line off. Water wants to go the path of least resistance. I am getting ready to set up a similar system, the pressure tank is already in place and I am added a 30 gallon holding tank for brewing.

 

[The_Bishop]

If your 5th stage is a deionizing filter, you don't need it and/or it's not desirable for potable water.

 

[bja]

If your 5th stage is a deionizing filter, you don't need it and/or it's not desirable for potable water.

It's not desirable because it's an added expense, but it certainly won't hurt anything.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's not desirable because it's an added expense, but it certainly won't hurt anything.

I have both and the 5th stage makes the water taste like absolutely nothing.... overstrips the water in my opinion since it removes up to 99.9 percent of everything thats left after filtering. If your going to take the time to add back every trace element than its fine but also keep in mind that for every gallon of water the system makes in this way 3-4 gallons are wasted and go down the drain.
I use the 5th stage for my salt water reef tank and not for my drinking water as the directions that came with my RO unit suggested...

 

[bja]

I have both and the 5th stage makes the water taste like absolutely nothing.... overstrips the water in my opinion since it removes up to 99.9 percent of everything thats left after filtering.

What does your RO water taste like that's missing in your RO/DI water? I've tasted the water both ways and couldn't tell any difference. Sounds like your membrane isn't working as it should.

 

[nudarkshadowl]

I plan to use this specifically for brewing purposes and I'm building my water profiles from scratch so it being deionized is fine for my system. Thanks for the advice on the tanks though!

 

[ajdelange]

My question is, can I still use the pressure tank that came with the system in addition to the storage tank or would doing so cause the system to shut off once the smaller 3.2 gallon pressure tank is full.

Think of it in terms of the normal installation i.e. with the pressure tank and a faucet. When the pressure tank is full it shuts off the feed. If you open the faucet then water runs from the pressure tank to the faucet and will continue to do so even when the pressure tank is empty because permeate is still coming through if slowly. If you turn off the faucet then permeate goes to bladder tank increasing its pressure until the pressure sensor turns off the feed. The float switch acts just like the faucet except that it is operated by level in the atmospheric tank, not you.

 

[augiedoggy]

What does your RO water taste like that's missing in your RO/DI water? I've tasted the water both ways and couldn't tell any difference. Sounds like your membrane isn't working as it should.

The membrane works fine... that's just it, many to systems will tell you not to run the water your drinking through that last step because it leaves the water with no flavor at all.... even bottled water is spring water or filtered with some minerals left in it for flavor... if your going to use RO/DI water you want to put some of the minerals back afterward or your beer may end up lacking.. I have not made beer with the water using the 5th stage only through the drinking tap in my system which bypasses this part of the system. The 5th stage is only used for my fish tank water which has the minerals added back in with the salt.
The Op seems to understand what I'm saying.

 

[ajdelange]

Your tongue is involved in taste as is your nose but more important in this case, your brain. Do a double blind triangle tasting test on RO and DI and you might convince me but as is I doubt very much there is a discernible taste difference (unless, as has been suggested, the RO part of the system isn't working properly).

There is no need to supplement minerals (except calcium, chloride and sulfate for beer flavor considerations) with DI water as the malt contains plenty of minerals to provide the co-factors needed for fermentation enzymes.

OTOH there is no need to 'waste' ion exchange capacity on removing that last couple of ppm TDS from the RO stream.

 

[bja]

The membrane works fine... that's just it, many to systems will tell you not to run the water your drinking through that last step because it leaves the water with no flavor at all....

If the membrane is working properly, it will remove 97-98% of the impurities. The DI will remove the remaining 2-3%. That 2-3% is not going to be distinguishable by taste. If you can taste a difference between your RO water and your RO/DI water, there is something wrong with your membrane. Do you ever check the TDS level?

even bottled water is spring water or filtered with some minerals left in it for flavor... if your going to use RO/DI water you want to put some of the minerals back afterward or your beer may end up lacking.. I have not made beer with the water using the 5th stage only through the drinking tap in my system which bypasses this part of the system. The 5th stage is only used for my fish tank water which has the minerals added back in with the salt.
The Op seems to understand what I'm saying.

You seem to be saying that the DI stage makes a huge difference. It doesn't, 2-3% is almost negligible.

 

[augiedoggy]

If the membrane is working properly, it will remove 97-98% of the impurities. The DI will remove the remaining 2-3%. That 2-3% is not going to be distinguishable by taste. If you can taste a difference between your RO water and your RO/DI water, there is something wrong with your membrane. Do you ever check the TDS level?



You seem to be saying that the DI stage makes a huge difference. It doesn't, 2-3% is almost negligible.

Well Its all in my head I guess... or my filters need to be changed which is very possible..I ordered replacements a few weeks ago just havent changed them yet.
I do remember the RO company recommending not to drink the DI water... after doing a search this seems to be for health reasons more than anything...seems to be a lot of conflicting info on these systems. In moderation (or in beer) its fine it seems.

 

[Chrisl77]

I think the biggest issue with drinking ro / di water all the time is the water is stripped of almost all minerals. If you do nothing but drink this type water it can actually remove minerals from your body.

 

[watermelon83]

Do you have a link to the system. I was brainstorming something like this but using a cheaper unit and making my own top off system using 12v floats and valves.

 

[nudarkshadowl]

My single tier 10 gallon digital sculpture just shipped from Morebeer!!! Which to be honest was a lot faster than I thought it would considering I only ordered on the 1st. In preparation, I have been reading Water by Palmer and have used Beersmith/Bru n water to calculate my first AG recipe and water profile. First batch will be a simple IPA. Also, I decided to forgo trying to adjust my tap water (high alkalinity, hardness, high sodium, chlorine, etc. here in AZ) and use 100% RO water. Picked up a 60 GPD 5 stage system from h20distributors, and a 35 gallon RO safe tank for a storage tank. I plan to run a line from the RO system into the attic, across the garage and to a float in the tank. By doing so, I'll have roughly 35 gallons of fresh RO on my brew days and won't have to constantly worry about my garage flooding lol. The float will create back pressure and will cause the auto check valve in the system to cut the water supply so waste water won't constantly drain either. Should work pretty well!

First step… Snap off the cold water shut off valve due to rust.



Install RO system and purge/sanitize the system by letting the tank fill and drain completely 2 times:


Installed a bulk head into the tank, a push to connect fitting onto the RO float, and a faucet and hose onto the bulk head. Then I checked the float to make sure it was working properly:


Everything seems to be working so far with no leaks. Just have to run the line through the attic and into the tank tomorrow. Also… I may have already cleared a spot for the new system, lol. Everything should fit perfectly!


Will post an update once the new system arrives! Cheers!

 

[rodduley]

hey nudarkshadowl, where did you get that black tank from? Does it also have a lid?

 

[mabrungard]

I think the biggest issue with drinking ro / di water all the time is the water is stripped of almost all minerals. If you do nothing but drink this type water it can actually remove minerals from your body.

No it doesn't. There are people living in places around the world that have almost pure water with virually no mineral content. You don't hear of those people dying off, do you?

Drinking RO, or distilled, or rain water will not strip minerals from your body. However, you would not have that source of minerals in your diet if you were drinking those 'pure' waters. Fortunately, most people's solid diets have all those minerals and there is no additional need for minerals from the water.

While there are advantages to consuming harder water with a variety of trace elements, its not a requirement.

 

[nudarkshadowl]

I got the tank from Aquafx at www.aquariumwaterfilters.com. The tank includes a almost airtight lid that helps to reduce contact with oxygen in the headspace of the tank. Its BPA/HDPE free food safe rated. It is more expensive then say a Brute cooler from a big box store, but to me knowing that the tank wont leech anything into my pure RO water was worth it.

Heres a link to the tank:
http://www.aquariumwaterfilters.com/product-p.ta-18x33.htm

Cheers!

 

[rodduley]

Thanks for the link. I just might have to get one of these.

 

[Flip2spin23]

bacteria will probably form in the storage tank if its not recirculated....

 

[mabrungard]

Organisms don't tend to populate environments that don't have nutrients to support their life. RO water has very little of anything in it, so it is not likely to support much in the way of a bacterial population. Circulation wouldn't help anyhow. I do recommend keeping the tank covered to keep dust out of it and the water.

 

[ajdelange]

bacteria will probably form in the storage tank if its not recirculated....

Based on my experience they probably won't. Remember that permeate is doubtless close to sterile (be sure to follow the system manufacturers sterilization procedure if any). As long as the atmospheric tank is covered and the pressure equalization pipe has a fine mesh screen in it to keep bugs out it should stay clear as should your pressure tank.

 

[Flip2spin23]

Based on my experience they probably won't. Remember that permeate is doubtless close to sterile (be sure to follow the system manufacturers sterilization procedure if any). As long as the atmospheric tank is covered and the pressure equalization pipe has a fine mesh screen in it to keep bugs out it should stay clear as should your pressure tank.

I do agree that RO/DI water is very pure and close to sterile .. but it will also look for things to take it back to its original state, recirculation would just help keep your water very consistent imo

 

[The_Bishop]

How is circulating the water in the tank going to accomplish anything?

 

[Flip2spin23]

It keeps the system moving
I'm only talking recirculate once a day for say 2 min ... At that size of RO/Di system , it would be cheap insurance for that nice of a system imo

 

[The_Bishop]

I still don't see the benefit, all I see is added cost/complexity for no good reason.

 

[Flip2spin23]

And it may just be a added expense to this kind of system ... But it's a definite safety cheaply 😉 also if you test the sitting water after a week it will be a lot different ..

 

[ajdelange]

Ultra pure water systems are looped so that the water is constantly flowing through tight particle filters, ion exchange filters and past a UV lamp. But the specs for Class III water (I think that's what they call it) are very tight with respect to resistivity, TOC, bacteria, viruses etc. The atmospheric tanks in such systems communicate with the atmosphere through CO2 (and perhaps O2) absorbing filters (not too clear on the details). An RO system for brewing is entirely different. There is no advantage to recirculating it. It will have a low level of minerals (things not rejected by the membrane) and CO2 picked up from the atmosphere plus whatever made it through the membrane.

...but it will also look for things to take it back to its original state, recirculation would just help keep your water very consistent imo

I'm afraid I have no idea what that means. What is its 'original state'? Letting it sit without recirculation isn't going to allow the sodium, sulfate... that went down the drain to find its way back into the atmospheric tank. It's going to be at equilibrium with CO2 pretty quickly. If there were anything to oxidize recirculation might help dissolve more oxygen to oxidize whatever it is we are hypothesizing is there to be oxidized.

 

[watermelon83]

Ultra pure, aren't we just making beer?

 

[Flip2spin23]

I have to say the above is y I don't I post on a home brew forum ..

The the real world of brewing is not talked about here...

 

[Flip2spin23]

Point is brewing RO/Di should never set for any time ......
That's y smaller systems r allways used .. Not When needed but stored

 

[The_Bishop]

I think you are the one not getting the point. What you are talking about is *not* an issue for brewing water. There is no need to circulate the water. As far as small tanks, you *are* aware that they make RO bladder tanks up to 20 gallon capacity, and probably even larger?

As far as 'real world homebrewing', I can assure you I use what I talk about here, as do most.

I don't see what your statements about 'recirculating' an RO water storage tank have to do with homebrewing, and when pressed for details all you back it up with is some nebulous statement about how it's 'safer' and 'better'. Provide more details and evidence explaining how it's 'better' and enlighten us all.

Will RO water be different if it sits a while? Depends on the storage container! The PH may drop some due to the uptake of CO2, acidifying the water a bit, but that's not an issue for mashing because the water has little buffering capacity. The mineral content cannot change unless you have it stored in a chalk and limestone vessel. As long as the vessel is kept free of dust, debris and critters falling in I can't see how there would be any major changes that would make it unsuitable for brewing. I wouldn't want to use water that's been sitting there for a year, but dealing with that is easy; dump the tank and let it refill if you have a brew coming up and the water's been sitting a while.

 

[ajdelange]

I, and I am sure there are others here too, would like to know what happens to the RO water as it 'sets'.

 

[kickflip_mj]

I went down this road a few months ago and have been brewing with success.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f257/55-gallon-ro-water-tank-build-482985/

 

[nudarkshadowl]

After doing a bunch of reresearch on my own, and listening to far more experienced brewers than myself... I'm not worried about recirculating my ro water. I have a TDS meter and will check my water regularly, but I'm not to concerned about it as it will always have a lid on it.

 

[Flip2spin23]

I'm no water guru , I have no exact explanation of y to recirculate the RO water ... I just know when I purchased/installed our 15,000 gpd RO/DI system. The hired engineer made a point to pass thur a uv light and recirculate the system if is sat not running more that 5 hours. Strictly to keep consistent water daily . Also the vents on the storage tanks all have .4 micron filters to keep any thing from entering the system ...
Like I Said in earlier post its probally overkill in a homebrewers setting
My .02 If I can dig up some of the testing we did on sitting RO/DI water I will post it

 

[ajdelange]

The explanation was given in #28 with respect to pharmaceutical, semiconductor and other plants with ultra pure water needs. A brewery is not a pharmaceutical or semi conductor plant. It has none of the stringent requirements for ultra pure water and, therefore, 'polishing loops' are not used nor are they required. A straight RO system does not reduce ion content to the level that justifies their use. The only place you might find and RO system with polishing loop in a brewery is in its lab if that lab has an ultrapure water supply. These are typically small benchtop units (for a small lab) and they include ion exchangers in addition to RO cartridges (if they have RO cartridges - some are designed to be fed from a lab or plant's RO system).

If you find test data the most dramatic thing it will show is that resistivity gets well below the 18 MΩ-cm requirement for ultra pure water. In a typical bench top system there will be a resistivity meter. In order to dispense you turn on the circulation pump (the dispenser is attached to the polish loop) and watch the meter. Resistivity rises as the ion exchanger takes out the bicarbonate ion and when the tops 18 you can take water. When finished dispensing you turn the pump off and CO2 starts working its way in by diffusion so that next time you go to draw water the resistivity is low again. In a RO only system this loop isn't there. Resistivity never approaches 18 MΩ-cm. What would you recirculate through? A TOC filter and past a UV light I guess if you were concerned about TOC and particles to the extent that a phamaceutical or semiconductor manufacturer is but a brewer isn't concerned about those things. A brewery does not need ultrapure water and so does not install an ultrapure system. A brewery does not recirculate its RO water.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

RO, and RODI water absolutely do have a different taste...

You'll not want to push RODI water to a pressure tank - somewhat counterproductive to do it this way. It's easy enough to send RO water to the pressure tank, and RODI water to the reservoir, (our Reef/Residential RODI systems are designed to do just that) if that will meet your needs.

Russ

 

[elerten]

In regards to home built RO water systems. Make sure to stay with stainless or proper plastic type fittings for anything in contact with the water for any length of time. Especially if it's deionized. Deionized water really wants minerals in it. It will corrode and erode damn near any metal it comes into long stationary contact with. I deal with ro/di water all the time and it even eats the concrete if there is a leak somewhere and it dribbles on the ground for a couple days. For brewing it's not an issue but to get to a low endotoxin level it requires heat. We boil so it's not really an issue, but even ro/di water can have/grow endotoxin type stuff. We test all our drops weekly for specifically this.

 

[bja]

RO, and RODI water absolutely do have a different taste...

That's BS.

You'll not water to push RODI water to a pressure tank - somewhat counterproductive to do it this way. It's easy enough to send RO water to the pressure tan, and RODI water to the reservoir, (our Reef/Residential RODI systems are designed to do just that) if that will meet your needs.

Russ

Were you drunk when you posted this?