Fusel Alcohol Test?

[forces]

I know there are a couple fusel alcohol threads in the search, but I haven't come across this particular topic:

I made a mead a few months ago (still on it's second rack, not bottled yet) and the first time i tasted it, it tasted like paint thinner. horrible really. That was roughly a month ago. Oh, before I go too far, here's the profile:

5.5 gallon batch
14 lb orange blossom honey
2 Tbs DAP, 1/2 Tbs Wyeast Nutrient (per instructions)
Lalvin D47 yeast (5 g, no fermaid K)
OG: roughly 1.095
SG: 1.016

So, I was worried about it and asked my very knowledgeable local "wine lady" about it. She said take two small samples, take one and put in in some kind of glass vessel with a non-metal lid, cap it, and shake the hell out of it for a minute or so. Take the second sample and just leave it be.

If the shaken sample tastes better, then the mead will likely improve with age. If they taste the same, it is probably doomed.

My results:

The shaken sample had a less intense, but similar, aroma. Both were "solventy" but the shaken was less-so. The nose was nice on both, but the finish was just chemically. The nice-ness lasted longer on the shaken sample.

I am posting here because she prefaced her advice with (paraphrase) "I'm a wine person, not a mead person." There is some overlap between wine and mead, but i realize that mead has some profound differences with regard to fermentation. Mostly with regard to nitrogen addition. I've read that low N source leads to octanols and heptanols (wikipedia, Compleat meadmaker)

Any of you ever heard of this? Results?

 

[forces]

PS.

This is a vanilla/ cardamom mead. I have acid blend and wine tannin on hand, could I smother the hot-tasting fusels with either of these?

I could back sweeten it with a ton of honey, but I prefer medium/ dry wines.

 

[Insomniac]

What temp did you ferment at? D47 is famous for its fusels over 70f. My first mead was a traditional with d47 and fermented too warm, it tasted like paint thinner for at least the first 4 months before it started to improve. I saved one bottle for the full year, which was last week. The final result was really tasty, everyone loved it, I could taste an undertone of the alcohol harshness but it was mostly gone. What didn't leave was how quickly it will get you drunk, so careful how you drink it!

 

[forces]

Mine definitely fermented too warm, probably between 70-75*F. I didn't know that D47 was notorious for fusel alcohol production, it seems to be a favored yeast by many on this forum.

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

even with the high ferment temp don't lose faith in it. I'd say rack it one or two more times, let it get crystal clear then bottle or set to bulk age in a cool dark place and forget it for 6,8,12 months and see what you have. Mead and fermentation can occasionally be fickle but it epitomizes "time heals all" and can be very forgiving in it's old age

 

[forces]

I am wanting to rack the fewest # of times possible because I usually lose about 0.25-0.5 gallons per rack. This is purely an economic thing. it's somewhat expensive to make (about $10-15) per gallon with the spices and everything, so it makes losing a gallon sting a little.

So here was my plan: In about a week, I am going to cold crashing it in my keg-o-rator for a day, adding some bentonite to clear it for another day or two, then racking to bottle. Any reason not to do this? will the fusels fade quicker in bulk aging with an airlock?

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

wow, that's a hell of a loss, what racking method do you use?

I've never used bentonite or any other fining/clearing agents so can't really say if that will help mellow it out any faster.

bottles vs. bulk aging...I bulk age for about 6 months then bottle, haven't experimented using one or the other, sorry I guess I'm not much help here lol

 

[regulatedhobbyist]

So, I was worried about it and asked my very knowledgeable local "wine lady" about it. She said take two small samples, take one and put in in some kind of glass vessel with a non-metal lid, cap it, and shake the hell out of it for a minute or so. Take the second sample and just leave it be.

If the shaken sample tastes better, then the mead will likely improve with age. If they taste the same, it is probably doomed.

This is very interesting. Will have to file this away in the mind file.

 

[haxcess]

So, I was worried about it and asked my very knowledgeable local "wine lady" about it. She said take two small samples, take one and put in in some kind of glass vessel with a non-metal lid, cap it, and shake the hell out of it for a minute or so. Take the second sample and just leave it be.

Would this not simply be aeration, like done to red wines? I have taken to opening my (young) mead and letting it sit in the refrigerator for a day before drinking. Quite a pleasant difference.

 

[regulatedhobbyist]

Haxcess,

I agree, I prefer chilled mead, however, I do this with my samples too. This seems to get rid of the 'cloud.' I was curious between the difference of this test and aeration as well.

 

[forces]

Im not sure what the mechanism is that causes this to work. If I had to take a stab in the dark, I would say that fusel alcohols have a high vapor pressure, and when you shake it up, or let it degas in the fridge, those trapped vapors are driven off. Same concept as shaking a can of soda, then openning it: all the CO2 comes out of solution. Shaking is just much faster than corking and letting it degas on its own.

 

[forces]

This thread may be dead in the water, but I didn't want to post a new thread on a similar topic.... so here's my follow up:

I talked to a guy at my LHBS who has made a bunch of meads. His comment to my fusel alcohol problem was something to the tune of: "Every mead I've made has had some fusel alcohols, and it takes years for the flavors to mellow."

I've also done some other research, and it seems that some proclaim mead to produce a killer head ache. Some people also suggest that fusel alcohols are to blame for this. While that fact remains to be substantiated by any reputable scientific source, it doesn't seem to have been widely studied. (Wikipedia quotes some test on hangovers in animals... seemed pretty subjective). I've had store bough mead,Hidden Legend brand, that tastes just fine to me and didn't produce any memorable hangover. Soooo.... I know it's possible to make a solvent-free mead, I just haven't done it yet.

Anyone have any words of wisdom on creating a fusel-alcohol-free mead? I am planning on using Wyeast liquid "4632 Dry Mead Yeast" with a decanted DME stir plate starter for my next batch.

 

[biochemedic]

Anyone have any words of wisdom on creating a fusel-alcohol-free mead? I am planning on using Wyeast liquid "4632 Dry Mead Yeast" with a decanted DME stir plate starter for my next batch.

Love that yeast strain, first of all...

To answer your question, in short *manage your fermentation well!* Healthy, happy, unstressed yeast will ferment cleaner, and with less off flavors/byproducts...

To expand:

1) Proper pitch rate --Make an appropriate sized starter for your OG and volume, or pitch an appropriate weight of rehydrated dry yeast (hint: it will be more than one 5 gm packet if doing a full size batch!) I would not use DME to make a starter for mead. AFAIK the general wisdom for starters is to ferment what you intend to ferment -- honey in this case. It doesn't have to be expensive honey...I use Sam's Club clover honey for starters. From what I've read, there is some science behind this -- they types of enzymes a yeast up-regulates during it's growth cycle will depend on the predominant source of fermentable sugar. I give my honey starters the same oxygen and nutrient treatment as I do the mead.

2) Oxygenate. Consider a second shot of oxygen 12 hrs or so after pitching

3) Staggered Nutrient Additions

4) Degas frequently during active fermentation.

5) Watch your temps. Be aware that internal temp may be higher than ambient.

 

[forces]

Thanks for the advice. It think temp control and strain selection were my two biggest errors... i plan on altering both of these, as well as yeast medium (liquid instead of freeze-dried).

I would not use DME to make a starter for mead. AFAIK the general wisdom for starters is to ferment what you intend to ferment -- honey in this case. It doesn't have to be expensive honey...I use Sam's Club clover honey for starters.

I, too, wondered about this. So I emailed Wyeast about it. Here is the brief conversation.

ME:

"I usually make starters for BEER using dry malt extract. I understand that one of the reasons for using DME instead of, for example, pure glucose, is that the yeast will adapt and stop producing the enzymes needed to break down maltose, maltriose, etc. Honey is composed of 31% dextrose, 38% Levulose, 7%maltose, 1.5% high sugars and 1.3% sucrose. DME has no, or very little, fructose in it. Will this be an issue if I use DME for a mead starter? Will the yeast become "accustomed" to a low fructose enviornment and later not be able to properly ferment it to alcohol?

I like the idea of DME becuase I know it already has all the nutrients needed, but I don't know if that will cause a problem with the yeast when it is pitched into a honey must. I do have Wyeast nutrient and energizer (diammonium phosphate) on hand if a honey starter is preferable. Thanks again for your help"

Wyeast Microbiologist response:


"You can use one Activator in your must, but I would recommend, if you have the time and gear, to make a starter. This will allow the fermentation to progress faster.

I don't think it is necessary to use multiple strains for this fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.


(NAME OMITTED)
Brewer/Microbiologist"

So I went ahead with the starter tonight..... I am gonna cold crash it when its done and decant it in a few days before pitching, reason being that I don't want to introduce "fermented" barley into the mead. I hope decanting will leave the barley-water solution behind.

 

[Insomniac]

Is it me, or did he not answer your question at all?

 

[biochemedic]

Is it me, or did he not answer your question at all?

^this...unless the reply's mention of "strains" refers to various types of sugars?
I feel gratified that they are emphasizing starters as much as myself, but I don't think they really answered the question at hand.
Perhaps forces can e-mail (Name Omitted) back and ask for clarification...

Thanks for the advice. It think temp control and strain selection were my two biggest errors... i plan on altering both of these, as well as yeast medium (liquid instead of freeze-dried).

Can you explain? By strain selection, I assume you're talking about which yeast you're using, but what do you mean by liquid vs freeze-dried yeast medium?

In terms of yeast strains, there are lots of great strains that make great mead...the Wyeast Dry strain just happens to be my favorite/'go-to' strain for most meads. I do, however use others -- 71B, White Labs Dry English Cider, even some 'beer' yeast.

 

[TheBrewingMedic]

This thread may be dead in the water, but I didn't want to post a new thread on a similar topic.... so here's my follow up:

I talked to a guy at my LHBS who has made a bunch of meads. His comment to my fusel alcohol problem was something to the tune of: "Every mead I've made has had some fusel alcohols, and it takes years for the flavors to mellow."

I've also done some other research, and it seems that some proclaim mead to produce a killer head ache. Some people also suggest that fusel alcohols are to blame for this. While that fact remains to be substantiated by any reputable scientific source, it doesn't seem to have been widely studied. (Wikipedia quotes some test on hangovers in animals... seemed pretty subjective). I've had store bough mead,Hidden Legend brand, that tastes just fine to me and didn't produce any memorable hangover. Soooo.... I know it's possible to make a solvent-free mead, I just haven't done it yet.

Anyone have any words of wisdom on creating a fusel-alcohol-free mead? I am planning on using Wyeast liquid "4632 Dry Mead Yeast" with a decanted DME stir plate starter for my next batch.

As you will hear echoed through multiple responses....yeast managment, degas as needed, oxygenate when appropriate, feed (give nutrients even with a starter) so they don't starve, watch your ferment temperature (D47 is the notorious one for fusel production of 70*F but they all have their quirks) ....Keep the yeast happy and keeps the fusels away

 

[forces]

^this...unless the reply's mention of "strains" refers to various types of sugars?
I feel gratified that they are emphasizing starters as much as myself, but I don't think they really answered the question at hand.
Perhaps forces can e-mail (Name Omitted) back and ask for clarification...



Can you explain? By strain selection, I assume you're talking about which yeast you're using, but what do you mean by liquid vs freeze-dried yeast medium?

All that is meant by that is that I'll be using a liquid yeast rather than a dry package of yeast.
They answered the question as to whether a DME starter or a Honey starter should be used.... the question about the yeast needing to be cultured in a fructose-rich environment was neglected. Could be that she didn't know.

In terms of yeast strains, there are lots of great strains that make great mead...the Wyeast Dry strain just happens to be my favorite/'go-to' strain for most meads. I do, however use others -- 71B, White Labs Dry English Cider, even some 'beer' yeast.

What wasn't included here was a previous email, where I asked if Wyeast 4632 had the same problems with high osmotic pressures that EC-1118 does, where it would be good to start with a yeast that handles high OG's then finish with a dry-mead yeast. Her response above is that there is no need to do that.

2) Oxygenate. Consider a second shot of oxygen 12 hrs or so after pitching

3) Staggered Nutrient Additions

4) Degas frequently during active fermentation.

5) Watch your temps. Be aware that internal temp may be higher than ambient.

2.) I am toying with the idea of doing an open fermentation this time around. Probably not more than for the first 7 days.

3.) The only two yeast-aiding products that i have at my disposal are Wyeast powdered Nutrient and DAP. I haven't been able to find any kind of consensus for a nutrient/ energizer schedule. Last time I just added 1 TSP nutrient + 2 TSP DAP at the time that I pitched, then another TSP of DAP about 1 week in. Any reason to alter this on the next batch?

4.) planning on stirring it up with a brew spoon once a day until it goes to secondary. May once everyother day if it stays in primary more than 2 weeks

5.) This is a bit tricky for me. Ambient temps are usually 68-72*F. I could fill my 10 gallon brew pot with water, and submerge the plastic fermenter there by reducing drastic swings in temp. I've never tried this method, however.

 

[Insomniac]

Where did she say that? I only see that she says using a starter is good practice, no info on how best to make that starter.

 

[forces]

Sh*t. I just realized that I posted a quote from the wrong email reply.... yeah thats confusing as hell.

Here was the actual response:

"I would recommend using DME for this starter as well. The main reason DME is a great base is the fact that it has all of the nutrients the yeast needs… not just a sugar source. I would recommend using nutrient and dap in the main must.

Please let me know if you have other questions."

^

 

[Insomniac]

Yes, it says to make a starter, but it does not say whether to use honey or dme, which was the question you asked.

 

[forces]

Yes, it says to make a starter, but it does not say whether to use honey or dme, which was the question you asked.

I just edited my previous post with the CORRECT email response. Sorry about that

 

[Insomniac]

Ah! Thats better, interesting.

 

[biochemedic]

Sh*t. I just realized that I posted a quote from the wrong email reply.... yeah thats confusing as hell.

Here was the actual response:

"I would recommend using DME for this starter as well. The main reason DME is a great base is the fact that it has all of the nutrients the yeast needs… not just a sugar source. I would recommend using nutrient and dap in the main must.

Please let me know if you have other questions."

^

Yes, indeed very interesting...I guess the concept is more important going from a simple sugar must to a malt wort than vice versa. I'll still continue to use honey for my mead starters, but it never hurts to know that in a pinch I could use DME...