Fruit ester flavour profile : How?

[roosmur]

I mainly brew standard/ordinary bitters and ESB's. I have made loads of batches of these, and have used many different variations of ingredients and procedures, but am battling to get that "fruity" taste you get when you drink some of the commercial ones (Youngs Special, Seafarer, Sambrooks Wandle ).

I mainly use maris otter, a small amount of crytsal malt as my grains, then a combination of target or boadicea or fuggles for bittering, and East Kent Golding for aroma. I have tried dry-hopping as well. I use Wyeast yeasts and have tried all the ale yeasts.

I have tried high mash temperatures, low aeration, low pitch rates, as well as normal ones.

I do get nice clean beers, all very drinkable and delightful, but they all lack that fruitiness.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[monkeeroot]

Have you tried raising your fermenting temperature? When I do English style beers I usually start my fermentation out at around 70°F and then lower it to 65°F once fermentation kicks into high gear. This usually gives me a decent amount of fruit esters. Of course proper yeast selection also effects the outcome.

 

[roosmur]

thanks for the reply : yep, I have tried fermentation temperature. I usually try for the high-end of the yeast manufacturer's suggested range (I often start fermentation around 73F and then move to 68-70F when it is established. You mentioned proper yeast selection : The only thing I have not done is stray from Wyeast yeasts. I have tried most of the Wyeast variants, but not moved to White Labs or Safale for example.

 

[monkeeroot]

A fair number of yeasts available from Wyeast are the same strains as ones released by White Labs. Here is a chart for comparison and brewery origins:

Yeast Strains

For most of my English ales I use White Labs WLP002 English Ale. I almost always do an open fermentation with this yeast for 2-3 days and then transfer to a closed fermenter. This might be something you could try if you haven't already.

 

[monkeeroot]

Also... Here's a previous discussion on this topic that might help.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/british-yeasts-fermentation-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

 

[roosmur]

that yeast comparison chart is very helpful. thank you. I see the white labs corresponds to the 1968, which I have used from time to time. (in fact i think that is my "fruitiest" of yeasts). I have also heard members on this site talk positively of the White Labs Burton Ale WLP023. I see that corresponds to the 1275 in Wyeast which is one ale yeast I have not tried yet. Exciting. Another excuse to fire up and try a batch. Thanks vm for your replies

 

[Owly055]

How about using some of the fruitier hops in small amounts.... Mosaic, Citra, Cascade, Amarillo etc. I recently did a extremely light body low alcohol Rye Wit using only Mosaic, and the flavor came out much like a shandy.... very delicate body with a complex lemony flavor. A small amount of something like this might lend the effect you are looking for.

H.W.

 

[roosmur]

Thanks - I had considered using some of the American "C" hops to boost this, but have not done so yet. Might give that a try if the 1275 yeast choice doesnt help me.

 

[blizz81]

What sort of crystal did you try? I was looking for more of a McEwans-type fruit flavor in a wee heavy and used 1/2lb crystal 120 and 1/2lb crystal 80 (16lb base malt). That + Wyeast Irish Ale = probably a bit too fruity for the style. If I were to step that down (and maybe step it up in your case), I would play with the amount of 120.

 

[roosmur]

I use a light crystal malt (EBC150) but make a 5 gallon batch and use around 9lb of base and around 1lb of crystal, so my ratio is about as high as yours, if not higher. I definitely get the malt, body and richness right, it is just the fruit flavour. I spoke to one of my friends who brews for a commercial outfit, and he said they dry hop with East Kent Goldings directly into the keg with some of the cask ales. I think the answer might be a mixture of the right yeast and some late hopping. Off to try the 1275 and a slightly higher charge of dry-hop.

 

[blizz81]

I use a light crystal malt (EBC150) but make a 5 gallon batch and use around 9lb of base and around 1lb of crystal, so my ratio is about as high as yours, if not higher. I definitely get the malt, body and richness right, it is just the fruit flavour. I spoke to one of my friends who brews for a commercial outfit, and he said they dry hop with East Kent Goldings directly into the keg with some of the cask ales. I think the answer might be a mixture of the right yeast and some late hopping. Off to try the 1275 and a slightly higher charge of dry-hop.

Yeah, I would think only the darker crystals would lend to a more fruity (dark fruit) kind of flavor. Might be tough for an ESB as far as getting a bit dark in color though. One thing to possibly try in small quantities if you're still searching after a few more trials.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I have recently experimented with a square fermentor for uk ales. I love them, and after reading about fermentor geometry having an affect on flavour profiles, I bought a cheap storage tub, one that fit in my fermentation fridge. I brewed a brown porter and use London ale 3 yeast. The ester profile is very nice going by the samples. Nice enough that I will try this again, with a pale ale next time. I open ferment for the first 3 days, and rack before the yeast falls back in, to avoid infection.

Hope this helps in some way. It's also a great way to top crop

 

[Owly055]

I have recently experimented with a square fermentor for uk ales. I love them, and after reading about fermentor geometry having an affect on flavour profiles, I bought a cheap storage tub, one that fit in my fermentation fridge. I brewed a brown porter and use London ale 3 yeast. The ester profile is very nice going by the samples. Nice enough that I will try this again, with a pale ale next time. I open ferment for the first 3 days, and rack before the yeast falls back in, to avoid infection.

Hope this helps in some way. It's also a great way to top crop

That's pretty interesting....... I'd never considered fermenter shape as being a factor.... I don't know why...... If falls right in line with my own experiments into fermentation music. I mentioned hops rather than bring music again. My recent thread on fermentation music received a lot of comment, some of which was thinly veiled ridicule. Unfortunately for me, I hear the comments that are never actually posted, and many of those were hurtful. Remember that just because you don't push "post", and it doesn't become permanently recorded here, doesn't mean that the thought didn't cross the ether or that it was not "heard". Some of us unfortunately (for us) are more sensitive to the "vibes" as they are often called than others. We hear those things over thousands of miles over an entirely different sort of "net"...... A much broader and more universal net that has existed since long before the internet was even conceived.

I strongly encourage you to continue your experiments with faceted fermenters. Every crystal in nature has a distinct native shape. Quartz for example is hex all the way. The various crystalline shapes when used in fermentation could well result in distinctive individual characteristics. I hate to admit it, but I've been delving into suspending various materials in the ferment. At the moment I have one with a piece of Royston Turquoise that I mined with my own hands in Nevada suspended down into the beer from the lid on a piece of dental floss. I've also experimented with gold and silver with interesting results. I don't however believe that the value of the material is relevant. The most interesting result was from a small doughnut shaped piece of magnetite (I think that's what it was) that was intended to be a core for a torroid transformer. A lock of hair of a long lost (dead) lover in a glass phial suspended in the ferment didn't effect flavor, but had other and rather disturbing effects every time I drank the brew. I won't do that again as it was too emotionally wrenching!

H.W.

 

[monkeeroot]

I have recently experimented with a square fermentor for uk ales. I love them, and after reading about fermentor geometry having an affect on flavour profiles, I bought a cheap storage tub, one that fit in my fermentation fridge. I brewed a brown porter and use London ale 3 yeast. The ester profile is very nice going by the samples. Nice enough that I will try this again, with a pale ale next time. I open ferment for the first 3 days, and rack before the yeast falls back in, to avoid infection.

Hope this helps in some way. It's also a great way to top crop

I have been wanting to try a shallow rectangular fermenter, but haven't yet. What are the dimensions of your container? I would imagine that a shallower wort level would have a large effect on ester production due to decreased pressure. I guess I'm going to have to give this a try just to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

As long as the height to width ratio is 1:1 or less ( wider than it is tall ), then it will be fine. This is apparently less stressful on the yeast and combined with an open ferment, which allows a high surface to air ratio, can give a different flavour profile.

I measured my fermentation fridge, it's only small, so the biggest one I could fit was 18l. But you need to leave a few inches for krausen, so I can only get around 10litres into the tub. Its not ideal, but the beers I plan on fermenting in this will either be bottled, or go through a beer engine. Why go to all the extra effort to drink it cold out of a keg .

I've only done one batch of brown porter so far, but it's turned out great, really nice ester profile without being crazy fruity and I'm definately going to do another batch. Tempted to do one of my saisons in it as well.

 

[roosmur]

Thanks guys - good points. However, the commercial guys are not using different shaped fermenters and are getting fruitier ester profiles. they are broadly cylindrical, with conical bottoms for trub collection. I had a small revelation last night though. My thermocouple is inaccurate! I use an STC1000 (it is quite old) and the temperatrue reading from the probe is around 3deg C LOWER than when I use a normal glass mercury thermometer, at room temperature. I think this is the problem, solved. ie I think I have been fermenting at the upper, fruitier end of the yeast's fermentation range, when in fact I have not. Now, I am not sure 3 deg C makes a lot of difference but will help

 

[monkeeroot]

Thanks guys - good points. However, the commercial guys are not using different shaped fermenters and are getting fruitier ester profiles. they are broadly cylindrical, with conical bottoms for trub collection. I had a small revelation last night though. My thermocouple is inaccurate! I use an STC1000 (it is quite old) and the temperatrue reading from the probe is around 3deg C LOWER than when I use a normal glass mercury thermometer, at room temperature. I think this is the problem, solved. ie I think I have been fermenting at the upper, fruitier end of the yeast's fermentation range, when in fact I have not. Now, I am not sure 3 deg C makes a lot of difference but will help

Glad you found it. I hope that your next brew turns out as planned.

 

[monkeeroot]

As long as the height to width ratio is 1:1 or less ( wider than it is tall ), then it will be fine. This is apparently less stressful on the yeast and combined with an open ferment, which allows a high surface to air ratio, can give a different flavour profile.

I measured my fermentation fridge, it's only small, so the biggest one I could fit was 18l. But you need to leave a few inches for krausen, so I can only get around 10litres into the tub. Its not ideal, but the beers I plan on fermenting in this will either be bottled, or go through a beer engine. Why go to all the extra effort to drink it cold out of a keg .

I've only done one batch of brown porter so far, but it's turned out great, really nice ester profile without being crazy fruity and I'm definately going to do another batch. Tempted to do one of my saisons in it as well.

Thanks for the info. Now, if only my wife would approve a beer engine purchase.....

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Yeah me too, I'm borrowing the brew clubs engine at the moment. Not cheap

Roosmur, the burton ale should not disappoint, it's an ester bomb at higher temps. I under pitched it and fermented at higher temps earlier this year to promote the esters and it was as described, an ester bomb. Not in a good way though.

It is a great strain though, and when it's good it's very good, nice stone fruit esters.

 

[roosmur]

Tried another batch, used the right yeast, sorted out my fermentation temperature and I got a much much fruitier result. To be honest, too fruity for my taste, but at least I know I can regulate this now. I can use this strain and ferment a little cooler and hit the mark I think. Thanks for everyone's help