Flappy IPA (stealing the wine term)

[nstowe81]

Help, IPA's are "Flappy" or dull, lacking that crisp bright finish like some of our favorite West Coast versions.

What could be the cause?

I keep things clean, treat my water, use fresh ingredients, pay close attention to mash temps, make healthy yeast starters, regulate fermentation temps, try to keep oxygen in transfers to a minimum.

Any thoughts? Starting to get discouraged. The beer I make is good but it lacks that tight bright clarity that I get from my favorite craft beers.

 

[aprichman]

An IPA with 1.5 ounces of flameout hops and no whirlpool or dryhop is going to be extremely underwhelming. A 2-3 ounce dry hop is really the minimum for an IPA these days. A lot of people are doubling that for their beers.

I see "two stage" fermentation - are you transferring the beer off the yeast for a "secondary" fermentation. Unless you're doing sealed transfers via CO2 you should stop transferring your beer until it's time to package.

Do you bottle? If so you're fighting a losing battle. Kegs improve hoppy beers substantially in my experience.

IMO ~1.5 lbs of caramel malts is going to pull some sensory perception away from the hops. A grain bill using just 2-row, Vienna, and Wheat malt would let the hops shine through a bit more.

 

[AZBeer]

Agree with aprichman.

I typically do an oz whirlpool and 1.5-3 oz dry hop on my 2.5-3 gal batches.

I bottle, so I can't comment about the difference between bottling and kegging, but my bottles usually do alright.

I would say that's a lot of caramel malts, especially if you are going for a dry, west coast IPA. I typically go 80% 2-row, 17% Wheat, and 3% caramel 60 or munich as my go to for that style.

 

[ong]

I would try doing a SMaSH — strip the recipe down to basics. Use, say, 12 lbs. Maris Otter or Golden Promise for the whole malt bill. Bittering hops at 60 to your intended IBUs, then cool to around 170-180 and add 4 oz of the same hop, steep for 45 minutes, and ferment as usual. Dry hop with another 3-4 oz of the same hop. It’s a great way to really identify the specific character of a hop, and removing variables can really help get your process nailed.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Several things:
Like @aprichman said, I would cut down the crystal malts. I'm not sure why the caramel wheat is in there in addition to the C40. To my taste, that would be too dark for an IPA.

Hops selection and volume: right now you're at 41 IBU (plus whatever you are pulling from a whirlpool). That's not really IPA territory either. Chinook and cascade is a bit boring as well, given how many new varieties and higher alpha acids hops are available now.

Your water profile is a bit muddled. Your SO4 is at 226.9 with a Cl of 112.7. Your desired profile selection (dry pale ale) looks for 329.9 SO4 and Cl of 164.9. The ratio is about the same but amount is vastly different. S04 contributes to hop sharpness and bitterness. In other words, more gypsum.

For what it is worth, from a casual review, it looks like you are doing generally the right things. Your recipie, to me, looks like a middling hoppy-ish amber-ish beer.

When I am making up a recipe, I usually start by reading a dozen or so similar recipes, to get a sense of what the "fundamentals" are, and then make changes based on what I want to accomplish.

My "base" IPA recipie is something like 10-12# 2-row (to hit my desired gravity), then between 8oz and 1 pound of C40 or C60 depending on desired SRM and to give a little bit of malt for the hops to play against, then a pound of wheat and carapils for body and head retention, and then for an IPA, usually a bit of table sugar to dry it out. Bittering hops at 60, then the rest of them are split at 10, flameout, and whirlpool, and then a big dry hop (or two, depending on style).

My base water profile is 122 sulfate to 25 chloride, and getting bitterness is not usually an issue. I have been diving into water chemistry a bit lately (for NEIPAs), but in any event a higher sulfate to chloride ratio will help with that West Coast IPA bitterness you are looking for.

 

[celiacguy]

As the others said get your crystal malts below 5% of total grist for a west coast style ipa.

Do you know your carbonation level? Low carbonation can make a beer feel heavier and thicker.

Do you have a pH meter? You have a lot of residual alkalinity left in your water after adjustment so a pale beer is going to have a high pH which will make it feel flabbier. You might need to brew with some acids. Well definitely you need some acids to get into the right range.

Also your sodium is too high for a crisp beer. You want it closer to 10-30ppm. 90 is Going to make your beer feel softer and flabbier.

 

[couchsending]

Water and PH

Do you have a water softener? If so are you using your tap water. That’s a lot of NA and a ton of Alkalinity. Yeah reducing Crystal is a good idea but water and PH are the culprit of flabby.

 

[nstowe81]

I took some pretty heavy criticism over this recipe. I actually took it from a book from a recently published respected home brewer.

That aside, I agree with the folks who are saying my issues rest in the water chemistry. I've done some research (downloaded and piddled with the brunwater spreadsheet) and have decided to build a water profile from Distilled water. I still feel like the Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions are too high but I'll ask you guys to help me decide. Additionally I used epsom salt despite reading that too much can lend a metallic off-flavor to the final beer. Is this too much as well?

the grain bill for the experiment is simple:

12 lbs 2-Row
.75 lbs C60

 

[celiacguy]

I don’t think people are criticizing your recipe. At least not in a mean way. They are trying to be helpful and pointing to the crystal malt levels as something that is working against that crisp finish you are looking for. It will still make a fine IPA it just won’t be the IPA you are searching for.

The levels for your salt additions are on the high side. Not super high just on the high side of normal. It will make a good beer but it might be a little more minerally than you want. You could dial those back a little if you want...or not. I’ve definitely made delicious IPAs with 400ppm of hardness. My personal preference would be to lower the gypsum a little and up the caCl a little while keeping that calcium around 100. I would also drop the salt and the Epsom salts. Malt has lots of mg and you want to limit the sodium as much as possible to make this nice and crisp.

 

[nstowe81]

I don’t think people are criticizing your recipe. At least not in a mean way. They are trying to be helpful and pointing to the crystal malt levels as something that is working against that crisp finish you are looking for. It will still make a fine IPA it just won’t be the IPA you are searching for.

The levels for your salt additions are on the high side. Not super high just on the high side of normal. It will make a good beer but it might be a little more minerally than you want. You could dial those back a little if you want...or not. I’ve definitely made delicious IPAs with 400ppm of hardness. My personal preference would be to lower the gypsum a little and up the caCl a little while keeping that calcium around 100. I would also drop the salt and the Epsom salts. Malt has lots of mg and you want to limit the sodium as much as possible to make this nice and crisp.

Thank you for the feedback.

One last question, are the water profiles offered by brunwater (pale ale) suggested averages?

I knew the gypsum and Calcium Chloride were still high but with distilled water in order to even come close to their suggested profile I had to add the epsom salt AND the higher amounts of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride.

 

[celiacguy]

Think of them more like rough suggestions.

Also It’s not that the gypsum and caCl are high it’s that some of the ions they contribute are. The Epsom salts provide so4 just like gypsum does. That is why the so4 number was so high in Your water profile. Dropping the mgso4 and the nacl would drop your so4 and your cl which is why I said drop the caso4 and bump the cacl in sort of equal amounts. That should get you close to a 2:1 sulphate to chloride ratio and drop your total hardness. Because you are swapping a calcium ion for a calcium ion you won’t push up the calcium number. If you needed all those salts to get into the appropriate mash pH you would be better served to get the correct taste and mouthfeel from the salts and then use an acid to get to the correct pH. It’s annoying to buy another ingredient but lactic and a syringe will cost you a little more than what you were going to spend on salt and Epsom salts.

 

[ong]

Heh, if you’re complaining about the flavor of a beer you’ve brewed, it kinda makes sense for people to critique the recipe, no? An IPA recipe with a ton of crystal malt, no dry hops, a teeny flameout addition, and no hopstand is naturally going to taste like a bitter-but-bland 90s IPA, rather than a crisp, aromatic modern iteration. It doesn’t really matter where the recipe came from.

 

[ircbrewing]

I agree with the others. An IPA with no dry hop is a bit questionable right off the rip.

Personally, if I saw an IPA recipe in whatever publication with no dry hop I would have skipped right over it. Not being pointed or anything just giving you my perspective.

My house IPA is a juicy. I dry hop 2 ounces of citra for 3 days. And that’s on the low end of an IPA I would wager. 3-4 ounces dry hop is probably used for most hop bombs.

Also on the IPAs I have brewed, not that I am any kind of source on this just my experience, the base malt is the star. There is a touch of light crystal malt, no more than 30L, and perhaps some carafoam for head and body. No more than 5-7%.

That’s my opinion. I’ve never used a wheat in an IPA.