Flanders Red recipe/yeast blend recommendations

[hirschb]

I'm planning on brewing up a total of 12 gallons of Flanders Red using two different recipes and yeast blends. I'm planning on keeping these two beers souring in secondary for 6 months or so until an Oud Bruin in my 10gal barrel is ready, and then throw a combination of these two beers into the barrel for however many more months is needed. So, in looking for recipes, I starting off with The American Sour Beer book. I was thinking of using the grain bill for the Wine Barrel Flemish Red (pg 311) and Zed's Dead Flemish Red (pg 314). Does anyone have any opinions on these recipes (good or bad)? Better yet, does anyone other than Oldsock have experience brewing these recipes? The next issue is yeast/microbe blends. I recently managed to get a hold of ECY02 Flemish Ale, which I'm planning to use with one of the batches/recipes. The other batch may work well on a ECY01 Bugfarm yeastcake (~4-5 months old). Does anyone think this is a bad idea/ plan of action? Any suggestions for which recipe may work better with Bugfarm vs. Flemish Ale?

 

[tobbias]

I plan to do something similar. The first recipe plan to use for flanders red is:
5# Pilsner
5# Vienna
3# Munich
.5# Aromatic
.5# Caramunich
.5# Special B
.5# Wheat malt
This recipe should be close to recipe in book brewing classic styles, don't have the book though. If the color looks good and is red I will brew another batch to have enough to fill 11 gallon oak barrel. Plan to use wyeast roeselare on first batch and duchesse de bourgogne yeast that i've been culturing for second batch. Right now the barrel is filled with a maple porter, next will be milk stout that is in primary, then old ale with sac and bret c., then sour rye with sac, lacto d. and bret b. one batch in primary and one in secondary, then oud brun with wlp flemish blend for both batches with second batch second generation flemish blend in secondary since 6/14, and finally the flanders red.

I don't have the book american sour beer (it will be on my xmas list) so if you could post the recipes it may be helpful.

I would not use ecy01 bugfarm in your second batch. I would save it for third batch. I would use second generation ecy02 in second batch. You can always blend the third batch with ecy01 into 5 gallons of first and second batch left in barrel after bottling or kegging 5 gallons of first and second batch with only ecy02. You will end up with a flander red solera with is method. :fro:

 

[TNGabe]

Don't pitch straight onto entire batch of trub from ECY01. That would be grossly overpitching. I'd use 100g at most, if you're making a higher grav wort, and more like 50g if the wort is around 1.060. I have only used ECY01 for lambic inspired wort. I wouldn't be inclined to use it with a more complex grain bill, but I know that other folks on here have.

I used ECY02 for at least half a dozen beers, with mixed results. The initial three batches were from the first pitch and then repitching just the trub from that first batch in two other batches. I used something similar to the flemish red recipe in Wild Brews. I found all three of those to lack depth of character and none made anything that was great on it's own. Bottle dregs helped them out a little and they ended up as ok blending stock. I had much better luck when I repitched a little of the ECY02 trub along with a big sacc pitch into higher gravity wort. A couple of the beers I made that way came out great. I'd have to check my logs, but I probably added dregs to those beers at some point, too.

Both of the recipes you mention look fine to me and are basically the same. Exact grain bill is less important for a long term mixed ferment beer than a 'normal' beer. I like to use more raw grain those recipes have, but I also like doing cereal and step mashes. Not suggesting you do either or that they will make a better beer.

 

[madscientist451]

I wanted to get my own long term sour program going this summer using a similar recipe and the Rosalare blend yeast. My grain bill was similar to yours, I was going to let it sit for 18 months and then blend it with the same brew 3-4 months old. I don't have any barrels, going to use the oak spirals in a carboy.
My local shop was out of the Rosalere yeast so the project got put on hold until cider season is over, plan on getting started December or January.

 

[hirschb]

Hmmm, getting slightly conflicting advice here.
So, if ECY02 alone isn't particularly promising the first go-round, why not do one 6 gal batch of ECY02 and one 6gal ECY01, and mix them accordingly to taste in the future? I wasn't planning to do 3 batches, only two. Maybe another option is to do two 7gal batches of ECY02, letting the extra 2-3 gallons ferment on ECY01 in 1gal jugs, and then mix accordingly, or do you think that's not going to be complex enough TNGabe?
Is using a 4-5 month old yeast cake still over pitching?

 

[TNGabe]

Hmmm, getting slightly conflicting advice here.
So, if ECY02 alone isn't particularly promising the first go-round, why not do one 6 gal batch of ECY02 and one 6gal ECY01, and mix them accordingly to taste in the future? I wasn't planning to do 3 batches, only two. Maybe another option is to do two 7gal batches of ECY02, letting the extra 2-3 gallons ferment on ECY01 in 1gal jugs, and then mix accordingly, or do you think that's not going to be complex enough TNGabe?
Is using a 4-5 month old yeast cake still over pitching?

Yes, using an entire 'yeast cake' is always overpitching no matter how old it is. Think about how much sediment there is/was in your original ECY pitch. Look at how much trub is in the fermentor, it's at least 20x if not 50x as much. Of course some portion of that isn't just yeast/bacteria and it could be alot depending on your brewing technique, but you don't need much. ECY01 is pretty heavy on the saison yeast these days from what I've heard. You don't want to pitch a bunch of dead sacc along with the active bacteria and brett. Again, I wouldn't use either of those blends alone, without bottle dregs.

Keep in mind, there isn't a 'should' here. There are just options and you'll have to decide what you think is best based on the information you collect and your experience. It's very hard to know what to expect if you are new to mixed ferments and/or using blends you haven't before with a recipe you haven't used before. Don't think that it will go according to your schedule or what others have reported. Give it time and let the beer tell you what to do.

 

[hirschb]

Thanks, but given that ~25% of yeast die per month (even in really good conditions), 4 month old yeast cake is going to be very heavy in dead yeast and a bit light on the live yeast. Yeah, that'll introduce a lot of trub into the mix, but I'm less concerned with overpitching than I am underpitching.

 

[dantheman13]

Thanks, but given that ~25% of yeast die per month (even in really good conditions), 4 month old yeast cake is going to be very heavy in dead yeast and a bit light on the live yeast. Yeah, that'll introduce a lot of trub into the mix, but I'm less concerned with overpitching than I am underpitching.

With sour beers that has been my experience. I've mostly used US-05 and S-04, but after a couple of months in my house culture (which gets a very low pH), the Sacch is dead enough to have trouble carbonating if bottled or fermenting if doing a solera. I've pitched on entire yeast cakes without issues. My biggest concern there is build up of trub that may result in the inability of the Brettanomyces to completely clean up off flavors from autolysis. So far that hasn't been an issue for me.

 

[hirschb]

My biggest concern there is build up of trub that may result in the inability of the Brettanomyces to completely clean up off flavors from autolysis. So far that hasn't been an issue for me.

Yup. Thanks for some confirmation on sour yeast cakes. I'm planning to rack these to secondaries, thus autolysis shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ChugachBrewing]

For what its worth, I've been pitching a single smack pack of yeast into a 50Gallon barrel and have been having great results. I've also washed and reused yeast from the bottom of a fermenter or "racked to the cake" as you mentioned.

My two cents is to either wash the cake first (After trying it once, I never rack to just the cake) or to simply buy a strain of the yeast you want. For a beer that is going to age for a year or two, you really want to make sure you've got the right stuff in there.

Thus far, Roselare generation 2 has been my biggest success. I also tossed in lots of caramel 40 and 60 into my recipe.