Flanders Red Questions

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm preparing to brew my first Flanders red, hopefully this week. I'm fairly set on my grain bill - a blend of vienna, dark munich and pils with about 8% flaked wheat and 4% each of medium crystal and special B. EKG to get 12 IBU's. Half will get Roeslare blend, the other us-05/Gigayeast sweet flemish brett and later on some pedio. My questions are about getting some starch in the wort. Any thoughts or experience with steeping crystal malts rather than mashing? Or steeping the flaked wheat? This should give starch rather than sugar, but it seems too simple compared with turbid mashing, is there any reason not to do it?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Also, is there any benefit in having a protein rest with sours?

 

[redllama]

When I did my red I mashed with my crystal malts, I think it helps give the beer a bit of body even when finishing around 1.002. I do think your IBUs are a bit high, especially if it is first generation commercial pitches. Most lacto won't sour above 10 IBU and some are sensitive at lower amounts. I typically shoot for 5-6 and that seems to work.

 

[brownni5]

You're on to something with steeping the flaked grains. I just did it a couple weeks ago for the first time, so no results yet, but check out http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Turbid_Mash

At 12 IBU you'll likely be relying entirely on pedio for the souring, which will take a while. So long as you're prepared for 18+ months, I think you'll be happy with what you brew. Tough to beat a good Flanders red!

I really don't see a need for a protein rest. Straight infusion should do you right.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The bitterness is a bit confusing - BJCP list 10 to 25 IBU. A BYO article https://byo.com/article/flanders-red-ale/ says to keep under 10, but then list recipes with 11, 20, 12 and 15 IBU. Jamil's recipe (Brewing classic styles) has 15.9 IBU. Others say under 10. I'd settled on 12 as a bit of a compromise and am planning on 12 to 18 months before bottling, so pedio should have time to do it's thing.

You're on to something with steeping the flaked grains. I just did it a couple weeks ago for the first time, so no results yet, but check out http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Turbid_Mash

Thanks for that....let us know in a year or two how it worked out!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Extra starch is not needed for Brett flavor development.
Extra starch/dextrins are helpful for souring, BUT reducing hops is a much more effective method to encourage souring.

I suggest no more than 0.4oz of low-IBU hops per 5 gal, unless you're planning to use dregs. Commercial cultures are wimpy. I don't like waiting years for sourness when the rest of the flavor profile is already great after 3-12 months. I'm also not really a fan of bitterness in sours. Just my 2 cents.

FWIW I've had good results from single infusion and nothing fancy.

Cheers

 

[brownni5]

The bitterness is a bit confusing - BJCP list 10 to 25 IBU. A BYO article https://byo.com/article/flanders-red-ale/ says to keep under 10, but then list recipes with 11, 20, 12 and 15 IBU. Jamil's recipe (Brewing classic styles) has 15.9 IBU. Others say under 10. I'd settled on 12 as a bit of a compromise and am planning on 12 to 18 months before bottling, so pedio should have time to do it's thing.

I guess it comes down to what you want your beer to be. Those quoted IBU numbers are, I think, mostly from the commercial producers that have mixed cultures that have evolved over time to make the beer they want. I agree with the above - dregs don't hurt. I'm skeptical that many can taste the difference between say 5 and 15 IBU in a beer like a Flanders red that is sour and has so much else going on. I will counter, however, that some feel that the lactic acid produces by Pedio (which reportedly takes longer to develop) is a different lactic acid produces by Lacto, and is also preferable. I can't say whether I agree, but if that's your thing, higher IBU may inhibit the lacto from producing much acid in the beginning setting the stage for Pedio at the tail end. You'll have to decide for yourself what is right for you.

And while I have never used it myself, many report that the Roeslare blend straight out of the smack pack is pretty tame and takes at least 18 months to produce any acidity. Subsequent pitches are much better.

 

[RPh_Guy]

some feel that the lactic acid produces by Pedio (which reportedly takes longer to develop) is a different lactic acid produces by Lacto, and is also preferable.

The lactic acid from Pedio is the same. What's different is that Brett forms acetic acid over time, and adds complexity to the acid flavor profile.

It is preferable to delay souring to some degree because it encourages yeast flavor expression.

 

[brownni5]

The lactic acid from Pedio is the same. What's different is that Brett forms acetic acid over time, and adds complexity to the acid flavor profile.

LAB can also produce acetic acid, according to MTF, but only those heterofermentative Lacto strains, while the most common Pedio strains also do (by metabolizing glycerol). Recently I listened to a podcast (either The Sour Hour or MTF) where they interviewed a notable brewer of sours (I want to say Vinnie C. of Russian River) where he stated he preferred the profile of a beer soured with Pedio, describing it as "rounder" - so take that FWIW. Again, I say this only to point out that there could be perceptible differences between the way the beer is soured. Really, could be an interesting experiment if one could source the necessary microbes and get the final pH/TA the same. Of course, Matt Miller has outlined his modern/fast method of brewing sours that starts with a pure lactic strain, follwed by sacch, Brett, and possible dregs (that, depending on the brew, may or may not have Pedio). http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation

Lots of ways to skin the cat.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I think we're on the same page.
I just wanted to clarify that there aren't different types of lactic acid.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I suggest no more than 0.4oz of low-IBU hops per 5 gal, unless you're planning to use dregs.

I've dropped my hops to 22g EKG for a 10gal batch (about 8IBU). I'm not too worried about the sourness though - I'm planning to do a batch every month for six months or so, so I can blend in a year or two, I'm looking more for complex and interesting flavours. I'm keen to add some dregs to some batches, but as mentioned in another thread commercial sours/wilds are hard to get (very expensive) where I live. I'm going to start capturing some wild yeast and bacteria so hopefully I get something worth adding to my beer out of that.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds perfect!

I like to start with a commercial culture to see how it does first and then add dregs if it needs more flavor. That way I can more easily replicate the beer if I feel so inclined.

Capturing microbes is a great idea if you can't access good commercial cultures.

commercial sours/wilds are hard to get (very expensive) where I live.

I think this is similar everywhere. Where I live it's typically about $10-30 USD (14-43 AUD) per bottle (usually 500-750mL) and they're quite hard to find. ... A lot of the more widely available sours are filtered (Duchesse) or pasteurized (Rodenbach).