flanders red oak schedule

[nolasuperbass]

I just made my first flanders red and it’s going into the secondary soon to age for about 18 months. It is a split 10 gallon batch with WLP665 and Wyeast 3763 Roeselare. My question is when to oak it and for how long. I have read that 3 to 6 months is about right, but if you leave it on the oak for too long the beer can become undrinkable. This will necessitate racking it at the 3 to 6 month mark, which will introduce oxygen. Those same articles say to be very careful about oxygen exposure as it will promote vinegar production from the acetobacter. This is part of the style, but will ruin the beer if too prevalent. However, the Wyeast and White Labs websites don’t say that they include acetobacter in these blends. Can I just bottle it at the 6 month mark and then not drink it until it hits 18 months? There’s nothing magical about aging these beers in the carboy, is there? Also, how much oak should I use? Any input from people experienced with these specific yeast blends would be appreciated.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Nobody that I know of intentionally introduces acetobacter. Once introduced, it will convert ethanol to acetic acid. A low level of acetic acid can add complexity, but you don't do it using acetobacter unless you want vinegar rather than beer. Brett will produce acetic acid when exposed to oxygen, so it tends to naturally occur as the beer ages. Re the oak, keep in mind historically it's usually aged in oak that's been used many times before, so the oak character is usually somewhat restrained. If you wait and add it 3-6 months before you plan to package, then you won't have to rack it again and risk exposing it to O2.

 

[nolasuperbass]

Thanks for the response. I am not a huge oak person, so I was going to keep it to no more than an ounce or two of cubes. I was also going to boil them first and then soak them in a neutral beer to tone them down. The reason I want to oak it now is so the oak has a chance to age and mellow. Fresh oak makes the beer taste like straight tree. I was just curious to see if there was anyone on here who made a lot of flanders reds and had a specific schedule that they followed. I definitely don't want to wait the 18 months only to find that I'd messed something up.

 

[microbusbrewery]

I think I'm up to seven now, but only 1-3 are bottled. #2 and #3 took golds and I'm doing a pro-am with a local brewery based on#3. I'm always learning new stuff, but I feel pretty comfortable with the style. I use wood in other beers too. Last year I took another gold with a smoked imperial porter aged on hickory (based on Denny Conn's Bourbon Vanilla Imperial Porter). Like everything, there are different ways to do the same thing, but here's my 2 cents.

I think you're on track to getting the results you're after. At an ounce or two, it should be pretty mellow. It's always easier to add more, but it's hard to take away too much oak, so I'd go with an ounce to start.

As to when to start, I'd probably wait until the sourness is close to where you want it for your finished beer. That way it's not sitting on oak (and potentially over oaking) while you're waiting for the sourness to develop. I've added them anywhere from a couple months in to a couple months left and had good results with all.

Boiling is fine, but I've also just steamed them for 15-20 minutes. Soaking them in a little wine can add complexity too. I've used both American oak and French oak. The American oak was small cubes or "beans", and the French is larger cubes around 3/4 or 1" per side. Chips work too but it's easier to over-oak with them as the increased surface area tends to extract flavors faster.

For sours, I usually start with an ounce and let it go for a few weeks. Then I taste it and if I think it needs more oak, I'll add a little more (0.5 - 1 ounce at a time) and let it go a couple more weeks. Taste occasionally to see how it's progressing. For most of my sours, I'm looking for something that adds complexity, but is hard to identify as oak.

 

[nolasuperbass]

I read somewhere that it's best never to rack it all, rather to let it sit on the yeast cake for the whole 18 months. They said that the autolysis byproducts that would normally kill the beer instead get used by the bugs for more complexity. That idea made me a little nervous. I was going to wait until about the one month point, assuming it was clear, and rack it to a secondary. Does the sourness not develop properly in the bottle? How long does it usually take for the sourness to develop? Thanks again for the help

 

[microbusbrewery]

Sourness can continue to develop in the bottle, but most is going to develop before you bottle. I've left my Flanders Reds on the yeast cake with no ill effects. I've also racked to secondary after about three months. Results were similar, so I don't know that I could say one way is better than the other. Like you said, my understanding is the sach yeast will die off and the brett will consume their byproducts, converting them into compounds that add complexity.

 

[secondbase]

I like to leave my sours on the cake during the maturation stage. I ferment an extra couple gallons in a small carboy with a clean sacc strain to use as a top-up when primary is complete to minmize headspace.

With the oak, I boil my cubes three times for at least 15 minutes each to reduce the tannins and reduce the oaky character. 1oz of oak for 5 gallons has worked well for me so that's typically what I go with. I almost always soak the cubes in wine for my sours and I'll add them right after primary fermentation is complete.

 

[nolasuperbass]

I was hoping that I could trouble you guys for some more advice. The 18 month mark is coming up, and I am excited to finally bottle and taste this. I am going to make the next batch simultaneously and dump it on the cake from the previous batch. Since I am sure that my ale yeast is long dead, so I am going to add some fresh stuff to the new batch. I have some Wyeast 3724 (Saison Dupont) and some 1388 (Duvel) on hand, and I was thinking of adding both. Thoughts?

I was going to just use some US-05 to bottle the previous batch, since most people say to use a neutral ale yeast for bottling. Does it really matter?

Also, I took Microbus's advice and added the oak cubes six months ago. The cubes are still in there, and I was just going to leave them there the whole time with the second batch. I figure the fact that they are second-gen cubes, when combined with the longer exposure time, should come out about even. Thanks in advance!