first wort hopping

[irishrover32]

hi id like to try first wort hopping i hear you get a smooth bitterness and great flavour from it but im wondering do i just throw in the hops after my mash, i do biab. and also how do i work out the IBU's ill get from it in beer smith i dont think the first wort hop otion gives the correct value does it?

 

[pvpeacock]

yes, just throw your bittering hops into the wort after you mash and before you boil. There is some debate about whether it really gives a smoother or better bittering flavor than 60 minute hops and about how to calculate IBU's. My understanding is that tests have shown that FWH provide virtually identical IBU's as 60 minute hops. Any difference is negligible

 

[brewmeister13]

Yeah, just toss them in as soon as the mash is done. Then bring it up to a boil. I usually calculate mine as a 20 minute addition. Seems to be the perception I get.

 

[rodwha]

So what's the difference then?

 

[freisste]

My understanding is that the isomerization of alpha acids drops off very quickly as you go reduce temperature from boiling. This isomerization is what gives you IBUs. So you calculate (in a calculator) based on boil time after hopping your relatively cool wort.

At one point, I read an explanation (on HBT - written by Yooper, I believe) about the mechanism of what makes FWH different from simply adding for a 60 minute boil. Maybe if she reads this she can give a recap.

How this affects perceived bitterness I don't know. The previous poster mentioned treating it like a 20 minute addition. I assume this is a personal taste "correction" considering I've never heard it. If it works, great. All that matters is finding out how it works for you so that you can plan how to use it. It will probably require some experimentation.

Again - this is all just my understanding. I just tried FWH for the first time and the beer isn't carbed yet.

 

[rodwha]

Please do post your findings!

 

[Renoun]

David Curtis was on Basic Brewing Radio 5/8/13 discussing his experiments with first wort hopping. He'll also be presenting on the topic at NHC.

 

[brewmeister13]

David Curtis was on Basic Brewing Radio 5/8/13 discussing his experiments with first wort hopping. He'll also be presenting on the topic at NHC.

Thanks for posting this. I hope they do follow up and have one with the actual lab measurements, especially IBU's. Most of the stuff about the bitterness is stuff you can find around the net and using critical thinking. I was surprised to hear about the mash hopping being the only one with an aroma. Definitely going to have to try running an experiment of my own in the near future.

 

[freisste]

My understanding is that the isomerization of alpha acids drops off very quickly as you go reduce temperature from boiling. This isomerization is what gives you IBUs. So you calculate (in a calculator) based on boil time after hopping your relatively cool wort.

At one point, I read an explanation (on HBT - written by Yooper, I believe) about the mechanism of what makes FWH different from simply adding for a 60 minute boil. Maybe if she reads this she can give a recap.

How this affects perceived bitterness I don't know. The previous poster mentioned treating it like a 20 minute addition. I assume this is a personal taste "correction" considering I've never heard it. If it works, great. All that matters is finding out how it works for you so that you can plan how to use it. It will probably require some experimentation.

Again - this is all just my understanding. I just tried FWH for the first time and the beer isn't carbed yet.

Update: I'm not sure how helpful this will be. Unfortunately, my findings are in no way scientific (if this WAS an experiment, I would be failing my science class ).

First of all, the bitterness was VERY smooth. Almost too smooth. This was an American IPA and it somewhat lacks that characteristic hop bitterness that you really want upfront.

Regarding my poor experiment, I changed way too many variables at once: I used Marris Otter which I think gives too much of a malty flavor for my preference. I think this may be canceling a little of the bitterness. I also did all cascade because I had a pound so I don't think it has quite the hop strength of other hops. Centennial may have been a better choice for me. This was also my first try at water chemistry adjustment - not sure the effect this had. Lastly, I got a hell of a headache part way through my first beer, reminiscent of the first time (and only other time) I used US-05 yeast. I wasn't as careful as I could have been regarding fermentation temp, but I thought I was pretty good. Does anyone else have an issue with US-05 and fusels? I've used WY1056 relatively extensively and never had an issue - I understand this is the same strain.

In the future, I may reserve FWH for APAs as opposed to IPAs, but maybe this is just my preference.

I was surprised at the effect this had, so I would certainly encourage anyone to do their own experiments. It's kind of hard to entirely describe the effect it has, so relying on other people's descriptions may not be the best way to understand FWH.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

FWH or Mash hopping seem to provide the same benefit. The lower temps allow some sort of bond to take place, where you get a round flavor and aroma that carries through the boil, and is not destroyed by fermentation. Do not substitute this for bittering hops. And leave it out of the IBU calculation. FWH or hops in the mash are the hops that you would normally use at the end of the boil and flame off.

In fact, its better to mash hop as you can load up the hops in the mash, and they dont end up in the kettle reducing your beer yield.

Also, you may use the mash or first wort hops, and additionally add hops to the end as well for more depth.

 

[Yooper]

FWH or Mash hopping seem to provide the same benefit. The lower temps allow some sort of bond to take place, where you get a round flavor and aroma that carries through the boil, and is not destroyed by fermentation. Do not substitute this for bittering hops. And leave it out of the IBU calculation. FWH or hops in the mash are the hops that you would normally use at the end of the boil and flame off.

In fact, its better to mash hop as you can load up the hops in the mash, and they dont end up in the kettle reducing your beer yield.

Also, you may use the mash or first wort hops, and additionally add hops to the end as well for more depth.

In my experience, mash hopping and first wort hopping are definitely not interchangeable and don't give similar results.

I rarely mash hop any more, at least not since the price of hops went over about 40 cents an ounce, but mash hopping seems to give subtle results.

First wort hopping, on the other hand, imparts bitterness that mash hopping does not- probably because the mash hops aren't boil while the FWH are boiled for more than 75 minutes in the boil kettle.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

In my experience, mash hopping and first wort hopping are definitely not interchangeable and don't give similar results.

I rarely mash hop any more, at least not since the price of hops went over about 40 cents an ounce, but mash hopping seems to give subtle results.

First wort hopping, on the other hand, imparts bitterness that mash hopping does not- probably because the mash hops aren't boil while the FWH are boiled for more than 75 minutes in the boil kettle.

They are partly similar, but you are right that there are differences that make them not interchangeable. I found this tidbit/explanation:

Mash Hopping is one old idea that is new again. The theory (yes it is a theory) is that by adding hops in the mash, the oils will bind to the proteins in the mash and be carried through the process. Allowing the brewer, because of the very specific temperature of the mash (warmer than the fermenter, cooler than the whirlpool), to extract aroma and flavor in a very unique way that is not possible using the conventional hopping process. Also, when you're using hops in the mash (as long as they are whole leaf and in a hop sock) those same hops can then be added to the boil because the alpha acids have not been utilized yet; this also works with dry hopping. Mash Hopping allows the brewer to use every last little bit of the hop. The process does take some secluding and some flexibility with flavor profile since there are really no calculations for this process, but if you are in a small, flexible microbrewery environment, this is a fun process to experiment with and you can achieve flavors and aromas other can't necessarily match.

First Wort Hopping is another hopping technique people are experimenting with again. The theory is the same as for mash hopping. Hop oils bind to proteins and survive the boil, then contribute a unique flavor and aroma to the beer because of the unique temperature of the First Wort (warmer than the fermenter, cooler than the whirlpool). A secondary benefit is First Wort Hopping reduces boil-over problems. The general consensus seems to be, add 10% of your bittering hops to the first runnings. (ie: if my recipe calls for 10 lbs of bittering hops, I'll use 10% or 1 lb. of that as FWH. (You can decide what works for you its just a starting point, other FWH information I've read suggests 30% or higher. You can also experiment with floral and aroma hops in the FWH.)

 

[skw]

Can't go wrong with experimenting. I recently made a Munich/Tettnang SMASH with FWH as the only addition. Came out extremely tasty.

 

[AnOldUR]

FWH or Mash hopping seem to provide the same benefit.

FWH provide higher measured IBU's, but lower perceived harsh bitterness.

Mash Hopping provides only a very small fraction of kettle hop bitterness, but may give you some aroma and flavor, but if your beer is already late hopped and dry hopped the impact will be very small.





edit:
Mental note: Read whole thread before posting.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

If you are a bottler like me, the best thing about mash hopping is that you don't lose flavor and aroma to the fermentation, which also occurs in the bottle. I have always noticed that I needed tons and tons (well, not literally) of hops to get a fresh hop flavor and aroma that would stick, as even with dry hopping, some of that freshness gets lost during the bottle conditioning process.

With the cost of hops, it is always tough to figure out what gets the most bang for the buck, and yes I am going to do some crazy stuff with hops this Summer with these various techniques so stay tuned....

 

[LibertyBrewer]

I FWH a light American lager. It turned out quite tasty. I don't really know how to describe it, but the hop taste was there without the bitter, but with the hop flavor.

 

[irishrover32]

was listening to an interesting podcast the other day about FWH vs 60min and the guy done a controlled experiment and did a large tasting with regular joes, beer afficiandos and bjcp judges and he said it was a 50/50 split between them on bitterness and flavour so seems it doesnt really matter, watever your into just do it

 

[kombat]

I've done both a few times, and one thing I like about mash hopping is that it makes the mash smell amazing.

 

[LibertyBrewer]

I've done both a few times, and one thing I like about mash hopping is that it makes the mash smell amazing.

With those hops mixed in with the spent grain, you couldn't feed it to animals, could you?

 

[brewmeister13]

With those hops mixed in with the spent grain, you couldn't feed it to animals, could you?

I know hops are toxic to cats and dogs. Not sure about livestock though.

 

[Weizer]

I know hops are toxic to cats and dogs. Not sure about livestock though.

I've fed hops to cattle, and chickens, and they are still alive.

 

[TrickyDick]

I've spent considerable time investigating this too. From what I've discovered, all the big mega breweries are allowed to mix into their spent grains, the trub, spent yeast cakes, spent hops, but I think they must homogenize it, and hop percentages have be in certain percentages. And the cattle love it. I found no reports of toxicity to any livestock. It is well known dogs can die from eating hops. I have heard that some livestock may not like eating hopped grain.


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