First time using candi syrup; need some assistance

[mesooohoppy]

So, i am brewing my first Belgian strong this weekend with candi syrup (recipe: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/09/rumble-barrel-belgian-strong-dark-recipe.html). I bought two packs of wlp530 and its currently sitting in a 2L starter. I plan to use oak cubes and soak them in rum; if you have any good suggestions for rum, please share!

I have never used candi syrup (I got 1lb of some 80 srm and 1lb 100 srm stuff); and I was wondering if I should add at flame out or after high krausen??

I was told by the LHBS employee that if I added at flameout, the beer would likely be sweeter due the fact that the yeast would go after the simpler sugars found in the candi syrup and then go after the sugars extracted from the grain. He said if you add after high krausen, it would be drier finishing beer. Is this true? I think I am swaying towards the flameout addition; although I am open to suggestions. FWIW, he likes to add after high krausen and suggested that is what I do to keep the yeast as stress free as possible.

He went on to explain how to calculate the correct gravity after adding to high krausen, but I had no idea what he was talking about. I really like to know all of my numbers so I can plug in and check for efficiency. So, if I choose to add after high krausen, is there an easy way to get a somewhat accurate OG reading?

I went to BJCP's website to see what they had to say about a Belgian dark strong and it basically said it could be dry (trappist style) or sweeter (abbey style); so that doesn't help me. Open to any and all suggestions!

 

[jekeane]

Many brewers feed simple sugars like candi syrup to the yeast at krausen for the purpose of getting the more complex sugars out of the way first and not stalling out the yeast early by feeding them straight sugar. I think Dogfishhead 120 helped popularize the method amongst homebrewers. 1.080 isn't a huge beer though and you are pitching a sufficient amount of yeast.

There is the possibility that you get better flavor retention in those darker candi syrups by not heating them. I use table sugar more often then the syrups so I don't worry about that much. However, there is a a difference to me in the aromatics of honey that is added at flameout vs at krausen.

As for correcting your gravity the sugar will add the same amount of points whenever you add it.

 

[mesooohoppy]

Many brewers feed simple sugars like candi syrup to the yeast at krausen for the purpose of getting the more complex sugars out of the way first and not stalling out the yeast early by feeding them straight sugar. I think Dogfishhead 120 helped popularize the method amongst homebrewers. 1.080 isn't a huge beer though and you are pitching a sufficient amount of yeast.
There is the possibility that you get better flavor retention in those darker candi syrups by not heating them. I use table sugar more often then the syrups so I don't worry about that much. However, there is a a difference to me in the aromatics of honey that is added at flameout vs at krausen.

As for correcting your gravity the sugar will add the same amount of points whenever you add it.

thank you for the info. I should have originally included that I am shooting for an OG of 1.090-1.095. I wanted something closer to 10%, as I have never brewed anything this big. His efficiency is listed at 66%, and I usually get 78-83% so I actually had to scale down a touch. wlp530 says it can handle up to 15%, so I didn't think it would be an issue. I also erred on the side of caution and double pitched in my starter.

I also left out carafa as his tasting notes said it could be used without it. I also used it once and was not a fan of it; although, I believe that was user error.

I didn't see any info on the candi syrup package in terms of 'points' for gravity measurement purposes. I will have to look when I get home later.

I am still on the fence if I want to add in at flameout or after high krausen. I wouldn't mind a slightly sweeter beer, but I am worried that if I do the flameout addition AND add rum soaked oak cubes, it may be too sweet for my preference. maybe a half and half???

I also forgot to mention that I emailed mike at the mad fermentationist, and he didn't seem worried about the candi syrup at flame out (what he did); but, as mentioned above, I plan to make this beer 'bigger', so I am not sure how big of a factor that is.

 

[Queequeg]

I think pitching the right amount of yeast and ramping the temperature early, after the 1st 48 hours is going to be more significant with wlp0530. It needs to be babied to finish up, based on my very limited experience with it.

Added at flameout IMO probably won't hurt, but if you can be bothered to dilute with some water and pasteurize, cool and as fermentation slows then do so. Providing you can with introducing air or infection.

 

[Queequeg]

thank you for the info. I should have originally included that I am shooting for an OG of 1.090-1.095. I wanted something closer to 10%, as I have never brewed anything this big. His efficiency is listed at 66%, and I usually get 78-83% so I actually had to scale down a touch. wlp530 says it can handle up to 15%, so I didn't think it would be an issue. I also erred on the side of caution and double pitched in my starter.

I also left out carafa as his tasting notes said it could be used without it. I also used it once and was not a fan of it; although, I believe that was user error.

I didn't see any info on the candi syrup package in terms of 'points' for gravity measurement purposes. I will have to look when I get home later.

I am still on the fence if I want to add in at flameout or after high krausen. I wouldn't mind a slightly sweeter beer, but I am worried that if I do the flameout addition AND add rum soaked oak cubes, it may be too sweet for my preference. maybe a half and half???

I also forgot to mention that I emailed mike at the mad fermentationist, and he didn't seem worried about the candi syrup at flame out (what he did); but, as mentioned above, I plan to make this beer 'bigger', so I am not sure how big of a factor that is.

I would suggest double aeration to capitalize on the grow phase. Open the fermenter at about 6-8 hours and blast with O2 for 30 secs. Reclose

 

[IslandLizard]

I think pitching the right amount of yeast and ramping the temperature early, after the 1st 48 hours is going to be more significant with wlp0530. It needs to be babied to finish up, based on my very limited experience with it.[...]

Exactly! In that light, I don't think a 2 liter starter is enough. If you can, increase to 3 or 4 liters, definitely when using 2 vials. When the starter is done, cold crash for a day or 2, and decant most of the (clear) starter beer. Then pitch the swirled up slurry. You may even want to hold a little bit behind for your next beer. Yeast ranching is a great technique and you save $7 each time you brew with that yeast.

I'm also for adding the simple sugars after primary has subsided a bit, say after 3-5 days, about 1/2 to 3/4 way through.

 

[Paps]

I could be wrong but i think the guy claimed it to result in being sweeter (final beer) from the flameout addition because of potential carmelazation of sugars vs them not being further cooked by the boil. YMMV.

 

[IslandLizard]

I could be wrong but i think the guy claimed it to result in being sweeter (final beer) from the flameout addition because of potential carmelazation of sugars vs them not being further cooked by the boil. YMMV.

You're not going to get much or any caramelization when added at flameout. If you really want more caramelization, you need to boil some of the concentrated, high gravity wort with the syrup for an hour or more, like you would do in a Scottish Ale. AFAIK, that is not a common technique used for Belgian beers. I really don't know when they add the simple sugar products, someone may.

 

[mesooohoppy]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions, I appreciate the help.

I brewed this yesterday. I had some issues. I was shooting for 1.090-95 and I got 1.071; I diluted the syrup and added at flameout. Not sure what went wrong but I will make another thread in the appropriate section. I have some suspicions.

I hit it with 60 seconds of pure O2 yesterday prior to pitching. Unfortunately, I am at work and its been 12-13 hours after I pitched the yeast, so more aeration is not a choice now. I don't have a flask bigger than a 2L and my other 1L flask is currently tied up, so a double pitched 2L starter was the best I could do. I imagine its still better than directly pitching into the wort (?).

With that said, I decided to try my hand at a parti gyle batch and run 2.75 gals off for 2 one gallon fermenters that I have for a sour. That went well and I netted an OG of 1.041. I will pitch the yeast and bugs tonight as I did not have enough airlocks yesterday.