First time using a Smack Pack, do I need to make a starter?

[SomeDick]

Hello, first time posting on the boards but I have a question about yeast starters. I've made them before using White Labs yeast but the recipe I'm making next is using Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes. I haven't worked with a smack pack before and I was wondering if I needed to make a yeast starter. Making a Belgian Pale Ale.
OG- 1051
FG- 1013
If I do need to, does anyone have a recommendation for a starter recipe?
Thanks!

 

[JosephN]

Personally I have not used this yeast, but you don't "HAVE" to make a starter. If you want to stress the yeast and get that character out of them then I say don't make one, but if you want a cleaner Belgian pale I'd make a starter. The liquid in the package is designed to help wake the yeast up and get them moving, not really allowing them to grow like in a starter.

 

[KepowOb]

I use a starter when I use wyeast (or any liquid yeast for that matter).

Recipe is easy, water and some DME .

Use a yeast starter calculator though. It'll give you a proper size based on your estimated OG and yeast production date.

I like this one, but if you google it you can find others.

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

 

[JohnSand]

I follow the directions on the yeast pack. If it says "direct pitch for five gallons of wort under 1.060" or words to that effect, then use it as is. Do check the age of the yeast.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Treat Wyeast packs just like you would White Labs. The nutrient pack will wake the yeast up and give you a *slightly* faster start, but it results in no significant growth. I'd make a starter just like you do with White Labs.

 

[ChemErik]

For that yeast in that recipe I would definitely not make a starter. A little stress brings out more of a yeast's distinct flavor. A few cases like yours that's a good thing. For a lot of yeasts that's not true and unless the yeast is really fresh and the beer isn't a big one you want a starter.

 

[SomeDick]

Seems like a lot of mixed answers hah.. Manufacture date is Aug 8th 2016 so it's fairly fresh yeast. I can understand your point ChemErik, and the instructions do not call for a starter so I think I might go that route. Thanks for the advice. Hoping for a great batch out of this recipe

 

[Qhrumphf]

For that yeast in that recipe I would definitely not make a starter. A little stress brings out more of a yeast's distinct flavor. A few cases like yours that's a good thing. For a lot of yeasts that's not true and unless the yeast is really fresh and the beer isn't a big one you want a starter.

Yes, in this instance you could probably get away without a starter. However, among Belgian styles, this is one where I'd be more averse to underpitching. And even then, to underpitch at a rate I'd consider appropriate I'd still be making a starter, just a small one.

 

[SomeDick]

So, if I were to underpitch, if I'm making a 5 gallon batch, how much of the yeast should I use for the starter?

 

[Qhrumphf]

If I were to underpitch at the rate I use for other Belgians, I'd be targeting approximately 120 billion viable cells for that batch size/gravity. A smack pack, when 100% viable, contains 100 billion. Yours, assuming normal handling and the age, is probably 75-80% viable, ie 75 billion viable cells, so you're looking for some small growth, but nothing substantial. I'd do a small (0.8-1L) simple starter, aerate it initially but that's it, and once it's at high krausen (I'd make your starter ~24 hrs in advance), pitch the whole thing. Would be slightly higher than my target rate, but if you go much smaller than that for your starter, you run into a problem actually growing yeast (to many initial cells, not enough media). But ulimately I'd go a higher rate here, and do 1L on the stir plate and target a "normal" ale rate.

The only style I like to pitch at the rate you'd be pitching with no starter at all at are Weizens. Pitching at that rate won't be the end of the world in this style (although I'd never consider pitching a clean beer at that rate, let alone a lager), but it'd have more yeast expression that I'd want in this particular style of beer. However, if that's what you want, by all means go for it.

 

[MindenMan]

I was brewing for years before I began to make starters, and now I make starters for everything I ferment whether it be ale or cider. I generally have O.G.'s significantly higher than 1.060 and I like to ferment at the bottom of the temperature range for the yeast I am using.We know certain yeasts will produce certain flavors at a certain temperature; sometimes we want those "additions" and sometimes we don't. I recently learned by accident that 4184 Sweet Mead yeast if fermented at 55-60 F produces a peach-like flavor in ciders.

 

[SomeDick]

Super cool info MindenMan. I'm still up in the air on where or not to do one but today's the day if I'm going to. I'll post what I end up doing after I do some more research. Thanks everyone

 

[Morrey]

Some posts are bound to be opinion oriented, yes, you made one of them! And opinions you got!

Starters can be a great thing, even stepped up starters depending on the situation and goal., but there is not always a need for a starter. For example, I make Hefeweisens by direct pitching the smack pack (after activating) with no starter. In fact, I don't oxygenate the wort much if any. I am wanting this stressed yeast to throw POF's aka phenolic off flavors which are desirable in this Hefe.

HOWEVER, in a clean German Lager, I actually double step a starter so the yeast is relaxed and can work efficiently w/o off flavors. Older yeast near expiration may require extra special attention to ensure vitality.

So, to make a starter or not depends on your beer and situation. In your situation with the yeast exp date you have, and the beer you are making, I'd forego the starter and pitch direct. I think you'll be fine either way.

 

[pauljacks]

I vote for making a starting for any higher gravity beer. I used to believe Wyeast and had some interesting experiences-- slow fermentations, etc. After these problems, I started using starters for more peace of mind and had no issues. For lower gravity beers, you are probably OK, but for pretty much any Belgians, I would suggest using a starter, just to be on the safe side.

 

[UndeadFred]

I'm totally cheap. Since it's $8 for a pack of Wyeast or White Labs at my LHBS, I make a big starter, usually a two step and split it over two batches. Takes off like a rocket. I am not so cheap I do that with dry yeast, however. But if you think you'll make another beer with that type of yeast within 3-4 months, why not? split, and cold crash. Usually there is still enough cells in a big starter to at least use the cold crashed yeast for a "normal" gravity beer later.. and it's clean 1st-ish generation yeast that way...

 

[KepowOb]

I'm totally cheap. Since it's $8 for a pack of Wyeast or White Labs at my LHBS, I make a big starter, usually a two step and split it over two batches. Takes off like a rocket. I am not so cheap I do that with dry yeast, however. But if you think you'll make another beer with that type of yeast within 3-4 months, why not? split, and cold crash. Usually there is still enough cells in a big starter to at least use the cold crashed yeast for a "normal" gravity beer later.. and it's clean 1st-ish generation yeast that way...

If you're doing that, you might as well use the second half and make a starter with that as well. Then split that, pitch one and keep the other part for another starter.

I just started doing just that recently and it works great so far! Got three batches off one yeast pack, with another this weekend.

 

[SomeDick]

Still new, this will be my 3rd partial mash batch. I don't have a lot of free time so I'm not sure when or what I'll be making next. Since brew day is tomorrow morning I'm skipping the starter and hopefully everything will work out. If not, well at least I learned. I plan on reusing yeast once I get more comfortable with the whole process. I've been reading the forums like crazy the past couple months though so I feel like I'm more than prepared. Thanks for all of your input. I'm making sure to keep notes on everything I do so I'll make sure to post my findings and such tomorrow night. I'm also converting a 6 gallon batch into a 5 gallon batch so we'll see how that works out.

 

[prrriiide]

Yes. If you are pitching yeast, you need a starter.

You will have beer if you don't. You might even have really good beer. But it will never be up to its potential without a starter.

 

[JosephN]

Still new, this will be my 3rd partial mash batch. I don't have a lot of free time so I'm not sure when or what I'll be making next. Since brew day is tomorrow morning I'm skipping the starter and hopefully everything will work out. If not, well at least I learned. I plan on reusing yeast once I get more comfortable with the whole process. I've been reading the forums like crazy the past couple months though so I feel like I'm more than prepared. Thanks for all of your input. I'm making sure to keep notes on everything I do so I'll make sure to post my findings and such tomorrow night. I'm also converting a 6 gallon batch into a 5 gallon batch so we'll see how that works out.

Good luck on your brew day. Have fun with it, relax and don't worry. Just try to keep things extra sanitary. I see people doing things concerning sanitation that just make me and my professional brewing friends cringe. Anyways this isn't about sanitation but more so to hopefully reassure you that there is NO ONE CORRECT WAY to brew beer. Don't let what anyone tells you stress you out at any point and just have fun with it. As long as your sanitation is good and you make decent wort, then the yeast will make the beer.

What about fermentation temp control? That's really a bit more important than deciding to use one smack pack or to make a starter. They are both important though for sure.

Well happy brewing

 

[SomeDick]

I'm all set for temp control. Last batch I tried to make was a banana disaster (Hefeweizen brewed in 90*f weather) so I said screw it and turned an old fridge in my basement into a fermenter with a temp control. I'm making a Belgian Pale Ale currently and fermenting at 68*f
Everything came out perfect yesterday, hit my OG exactly (which I've never done). No boil over, timing worked out, and hopefully I'll see some fermentation this morning. Not bad for a guy who had his appendix taken out 3 days ago

 

[kh54s10]

I haven't experimented with controlling flavor profiles with pitch amounts. So I always make a starter when using liquid yeast. I use a calculator and have always made at least a small starter on every batch I have done. Fermentation often starts in as little as a few hours and always by the next morning. The longest I have had was with rehydrated dry yeast and that started within 24 hours.

If you want to try to get a flavor profile by underpitching, go for it.

 

[SomeDick]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1473947332.192366.jpg

Fermentation started at around 12 hour mark. Seems happy and healthy. I'm hoping the color lightens up a bit.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yes. If you are pitching yeast, you need a starter.

You will have beer if you don't. You might even have really good beer. But it will never be up to its potential without a starter.

I'm not a fan of sensationalism and absolutes in brewing. "You have to do this every time" or "never do this" or whatever is often bad advice. "Always make a starter" is bad advice. Often needed. Sometimes detrimental to the beer.

Sometimes for my Weizens I'll not only NOT make a starter, but I may even deliberately age the yeast a bit, because too much yeast ruins the ester character.

There's not one process that works for everything. That's not to say that anything goes, either. Everything in brewing is a series of variables that can be adjusted to achieve the results you want. There may indeed be a "correct" way to do things to get a desired result, but it won't be correct for every beer. Too much homebrew dogma out there that says otherwise.

 

[SomeDick]

Only Sith's deal in absolutes

 

[JosephN]

View attachment 370089

Fermentation started at around 12 hour mark. Seems happy and healthy. I'm hoping the color lightens up a bit.

Think of the color this way, it's gonna look darker being that you are trying to look through so many GALLONS of wort. Once you have it in a bottle or glass it's gonna be less dense. It will look lighter in a smaller package and darker in a larger package.

It looks good. Heck you're making me want to brew.

 

[JosephN]

I'm not a fan of sensationalism and absolutes in brewing. "You have to do this every time" or "never do this" or whatever is often bad advice. "Always make a starter" is bad advice. Often needed. Sometimes detrimental to the beer.

Sometimes for my Weizens I'll not only NOT make a starter, but I may even deliberately age the yeast a bit, because too much yeast ruins the ester character.

There's not one process that works for everything. That's not to say that anything goes, either. Everything in brewing is a series of variables that can be adjusted to achieve the results you want. There may indeed be a "correct" way to do things to get a desired result, but it won't be correct for every beer. Too much homebrew dogma out there that says otherwise.

AMEN. That's why I said to not worry about it or stress over what people suggest. Each beer is different and requires a slightly different technique. Making mistake or having bad batches can either cause you to learn why it happened or give up. Those moments may come and when they do just keep pressing forward and know that making beer is actually really easy, just keep things sanitary and you'll make decent beer. With good fermentation and learning your yeast you can make great beer.

 

[SomeDick]

So, it's been a couple days and fermentation has slowed down incredibly. I've been keeping it at 68* since yeast was pinched but I think I need to raise the temp up to 72. I went to check the gravity and found out my son broke my hydrometer (I have a feeling that is going to happen a lot) so I'll post later this afternoon when I pick up a new one. Most of the stuff I read online about this yeast Strain was that people seem to slowly raise the temp as the fermentation goes. Anyone work with Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes before?

 

[SomeDick]

Finally was able to read the gravity today. It was suppose to have a 1013 FG but we're at 1010 currently. Still slightly fermenting. That yeast worked real fast and real hard.

 

[JohnSand]

Then it definitely was not an under-pitch. Glad it worked out.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Then it definitely was not an under-pitch. Glad it worked out.

There's more to "not an under-pitch" than reaching your FG.

For perspective, when you order a commercial pitchable quantity (as in an initial pitch for a commercial brewery), they supply a MUCH higher pitching rate than Wyeast or White Labs do in their homebrew packs. And that includes White Labs in commercial quantities. Their "good for 5 gallons up to 1.060" is bunk in all but a minority of cases, and they all but assuredly know it. The directions on their packaging are lowest common denominator, because at that rate it will attenuate and make beer. They are not best practice. Period. End of story. Sometimes it'll work (a yeast forward beer where high esters are desired). Most of the time it won't.

In this case, if the beer is more estery, or the alcohol hits harder than the OP wanted, then he under-pitched, regardless of how far it attenuated.

 

[JohnSand]

And if it is without flaws, he'll still be wrong?
It didn't just reach final gravity, it reached it quickly. The yeast companies are not scamming us. Try to relax.

 

[Qhrumphf]

And if it is without flaws, he'll still be wrong?
It didn't just reach final gravity, it reached it quickly. The yeast companies are not scamming us. Try to relax.

If the beer is what the OP wants, then he did it correctly. Just that it may not work that way for everything. What the yeast companies provide will work for most beers (as in it will attenuate, not necessarily produce the best possible product), but brewing practices amongst commercial brewers, accepted brewing science, and the pitching rates supplied by yeast companies to commercial brewers, all substantially differ from what the homebrew pack says. Why? It's the same yeast. If anything pros can use less as the pressure of a conical fermenter would suppress the higher esters of a lower pitching rate. They're not scamming us. Much like dry yeast packs saying to pitch dry. It's just lowest common denominator, easiest, and functionally acceptable (and I mean acceptable, not ideal) to make beer in most common circumstances. Even they say old yeast, larger batches, high gravity, lagers, you need more.