First time attempt at water treatment

[cochised]

After a few BIAB AG batches I did had a bad off taste and after some advice on here I think my water may be part of the problem
I've not done any water treatment before so hoping for some advice here.
The image below is a bottle of spring water from store here, with the apparent make up of the water listed.
Is it a simple process of keying these numbers into a program like Bru'nwater and then making adjustments as necessary?
Or is there more to it than that?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

That's not ideal for brewing - bicarbonate is quite high. Do you have access to RO water?

 

[cochised]

Not at the moment but don't have to use that water, was more about how to go forward if that was what I was going to use.
Like i say, not treated water before.
Have access to the in laws fresh water well but need to get the water tested there methinks

 

[Gnomebrewer]

It is likely that their well water will also have water with quite high alkalinity (bicarbonate) - most Irish ground water seems to.

If you were using that water, you could plug the numbers in to Bru'n water (or similar) to work out your required salt and acid additions (that's how most brewers do it).

If you can't get hold of RO water, it might be worth (depending how often and how much you brew) either installing an RO system or buying a water still (distill your own water).

 

[cochised]

Cool, good to know.

Are those sorts of figures easy to sort with additions?

 

[Redpappy]

I use Bru n water. I tend to use stilled water for most of my brews and just add the salts. On my darker beers I do a split using tap water and stilled. I will have to say I have noticed a big difference in my beer since I have been dabbling with my water.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That's not ideal for brewing - bicarbonate is quite high. Do you have access to RO water?

Not to mention that the cation/anion balance isn't very close.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Not to mention that the cation/anion balance isn't very close.

I was wondering that - it didn't look balanced, but I was too lazy to work it out.

 

[cire]

The imbalance isn't that unusual.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The imbalance isn't that unusual.

True! And on second check, if calcium was 50 ppm instead of 45 ppm, the balance would be real good.

 

[cochised]

Ordered some of the PH5.2 stabiliser stuff, just to try, I know it isn't a catch all solution

Also, found another water with following values, suitable to use with the above stabiliser?
Ca 79.3
Mag 22
Pot 2
Sod 20
Bicarb 200
Sulph 35
Nitrate 4
Chloride 18

Hoping to do a red IPA and a choc stout AG BIAB in next week or so.

Am planning to do a lot more research into water treatment etc but have some time off work next 10 days so am also hoping to try and the 2 brews done

 

[cire]

Avoid the stabiliser, it doesn't work in the real world.

It you want to use that water for a red IPA, get rid of 80 to 90% of the alkalinity using acid and add some gypsum.

For your stout, use acid to reduce the alkalinity by between half and two thirds and add some calcium chloride.

 

[cochised]

http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/phosphoric-acid-75-230-ml-406-g-p-3387.html

Would that work to acidify it?

 

[cire]

http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/phosphoric-acid-75-230-ml-406-g-p-3387.html

Would that work to acidify it?

Well it's frequently used Stateside. On this side of the Atlantic it is more common to use CRS, hydrochloric acid or sulphuric acid, although the latter is a more difficult to obtain and isn't advertised as it once was. The company that supplies hydrochloric also supply sulphuric but you need to satisfy them of your intentions before it can be dispatched.

 

[cochised]

Cool
Ordered the phosphoric acid anyway and gypsum so will give them a go
Got Palmer's Water book on Kindle too, time to read up on it alright

My brief foray into all this has definitely put a RO system on my list though

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Unless you are at the technical level of a chemist or a chemical engineer, Palmer's "Water" book is a tough read, and you may not get much out of it overall. I don't consider it one of his best efforts by any means. I doubt that even Palmer knows in full detail what it's actually about, and for much of it I purely speculate that he was merely a ghost writer. I think the book gets rave reviews from most people simply because they do not want to be perceived to be inferior. In other words, I don't think that the majority of those giving it rave reviews actually understand it at all. Rather, I perceive that many of the book review cheerleaders are the ones who in a somewhat different setting and time would be found standing along the roadside and cheering on the Emperor and admiring his "new" clothes (until the honest little child comes along).

 

[cochised]

Cost €6 on Kindle so even if I pick up a few bits from it it's all good

I've already started to understand a bit more about water, but also think I just want to learn only enough to enable me to brew consistently decent beers. It seems like a big rabbit hole to go down for what is still a hobby for me

 

[cire]

Cost €6 on Kindle so even if I pick up a few bits from it it's all good

I've already started to understand a bit more about water, but also think I just want to learn only enough to enable me to brew consistently decent beers. It seems like a big rabbit hole to go down for what is still a hobby for me

@Silver_Is_Money describes Palmer's book well, but you will also find worse. Yes, it is big subject and just like in a rabbit hole you might find ferrets coming your way.

 

[ajdelange]

Unless you are at the technical level of a chemist or a chemical engineer, Palmer's "Water" book is a tough read, and you may not get much out of it overall.

Nobody said water chemistry is an easy thing to master. Why don't we let cochised decide whether this book is a match for his level of aquaintance with chemistry. One certainly does not need to be a chemist or chem e to benefit from it. It was not written by a chemist or chem E (John is a metallurgist).

I don't consider it one of his best efforts by any means.

This book is devoid of the errors found in some of his previous books and casts aside some of his earlier theories based on nomograms, tons of chalk etc. In that sense it is much better than his previous books.

I doubt that even Palmer knows in full detail what it's actually about, and for much of it I purely speculate that he was merely a ghost writer.

This, IMO, borders on slander. For whom do you think he wrote?

I think the book gets rave reviews from most people simply because they do not want to be perceived to be inferior. In other words, I don't think that the majority of those giving it rave reviews actually understand it at all. Rather, I perceive that many of the book review cheerleaders are the ones who in a somewhat different setting and time would be found standing along the roadside and cheering on the Emperor and admiring his "new" clothes (until the honest little child comes along).

I would think declaring, in a public forum, a book devoid of meaningful content because one does not understand it a courageous act but Dunning and Kruger tell us such is actually quite common. Would that I could apply that reasoning to "Quantum Field Theory in a Nutshell"!

I hope that cochised and others will have a chuckle at this "review" and then forget about it. The book is indeed somewhat less accessible than most Brewers Publications offering because most of those are at the "Brewing for Dummies" level. Palmer's book thus falls midway between the "For Dummies" books and the professional texts on water chemistry. Some of those (e.g. Aquatic Chemistry - An Equilibrium Approach) are really dense and would be hard to read for someone with no training/experience in chemistry. There are certainly places where Water could be improved (and would, we hope, be so in a second edition). For example the emphasis on residual alkalinity needs to go and more emphasis put on charge accounting (which was, AFAIK, introduced in this book).[/QUOTE]

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I merely expressed an opinion that the average Joe is quite likely to perceive it to be at a technical level that puts it generally out of their reach, and subsequent to this, that many of the same average Joe's will somehow find a need to publicly praise it in review anyway.

 

[ajdelange]

Had you indeed done only that I would not have felt the need to respond as I did.

 

[balrog]

There are those who want a simple answer to "What do I do with this water, to make the best of this type of beer?"
There are those who wish a higher understanding.
I have not read that book, just browsed my copy.
It is, indeed, not meant for the simple answer, but for the understanding; much in the way Yeast, Malt or Hops were meant. (my opinion)
I have a Masters degree in Experimental Solid State Physics and sometimes want an understanding.

Sometimes I want a simple answer. Ya just never know.

 

[mabrungard]

The book is indeed somewhat less accessible than most Brewers Publications offering because most of those are at the "Brewing for Dummies" level. Palmer's book thus falls midway between the "For Dummies" books and the professional texts on water chemistry. Some of those (e.g. Aquatic Chemistry - An Equilibrium Approach) are really dense and would be hard to read for someone with no training/experience in chemistry. There are certainly places where Water could be improved (and would, we hope, be so in a second edition). For example the emphasis on residual alkalinity needs to go and more emphasis put on charge accounting (which was, AFAIK, introduced in this book).

As AJ illustrates, it would be very difficult to write a factual and useful book on brewing water without getting into some deep subjects. AJ and I were the 'ghost writers' (aka: technical editors) for that book, but make no mistake that it was John that took on the monumental task of formulating and assembling the book. I know that both AJ and I didn't want this to be a Dummies book. It needed to include the strong technical underpinnings that would be valuable for an otherwise knowledgeable brewer.

If a brewer needs a Dummies book, I recommend that they stick to the Water Primer that AJ crafted. It has the basics to brewing decent beers with RO or Distilled water. If you want guidance on how to decipher and work with your tap water in brewing, then I suggest that you read the Simple Water article that I authored for Zymurgy. It provides simple and safe water additions that are based on the brewer's perceptions of problems or characteristics of their current brewing results.

 

[cochised]

So I see something of a debate has been stirred, no harm I suppose


As an aside, had some friends over
Discerning beer drinkers so gave them some of an extract SN pale clone I did.
Both enjoyed it but both commented it was quite malt heavy in taste as opposed to hoppy.
From a water point of view can I read anything into that? Plenty of hops applied during recipe process

 

[mabrungard]

Both enjoyed it but both commented it was quite malt heavy in taste as opposed to hoppy.
From a water point of view can I read anything into that? Plenty of hops applied during recipe process

If your water profile had modest sulfate content, say less than 200 ppm, then you may find that adding a thin pinch of gypsum powder to a pint of that beer (and mixing it up) can make a notable difference. You might even try two pinches if the first pinch did some good and your original sulfate content was around 100 or less.

Sulfate will definitely help dry the beer finish and strip the malt from your palate. A thin pinch of gypsum in a pint increases sulfate by about 100 ppm.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

...had some friends over
Discerning beer drinkers so gave them some of an extract SN pale clone I did.
Both enjoyed it but both commented it was quite malt heavy in taste as opposed to hoppy.

Extract brewing? Both DME and LME extracts are made from highly concentrated wort. Hopefully fresh when used and hopefully made from wort mashed using good brewing water.

Not knowing the details of your recipe. Could the lackluster hop perception have more to do with yeast type and fermentation or BU:GU ratio?

 

[cochised]

Fermentation was pretty consistent, temps never strayed too far

Must admit I can't remember what yeast I used, lots of brews lately and haven't kept notes as much as I normally do.
Think it was US-05 sprinkled on top, but I'll check back in case it was a liquid vial

I personally enjoyed the beer but I'm starting to think I want a bit more from my brewing.
It wasn't amazing but I'd like for people who drink what I brew to really think it's very good

I feel I'm using decent ingredients and have my process down pretty well, so would like to be able to make much better beers than I am

Considering an RO system and then doing additions to that, but cost will determine that

Water report first, and I'll go from there

 

[HTH1975]

Not at the moment but don't have to use that water, was more about how to go forward if that was what I was going to use.
Like i say, not treated water before.
Have access to the in laws fresh water well but need to get the water tested there methinks

As others have noted, alkalinity is high on that bottled water. I’ve used Tesco Ashbeck a number of times with great results. I’d go with that and save your phosphoric acid for treating tap water.

 

[cochised]

Alas not on sale in Ireland anymore I don't think

 

[Yooper]

If you want more of a "Water for Dummies" approach, I wrote a three part article a while back:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-1/
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-2/
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2018/02/13/brewing-water-basics-putting-it-all-together/

Not that you're a dummy- it's me. It took me years reading everything I could about water for brewing, and asking both those two experts above many 'dumb' questions which they patiently answered. Once I felt totally comfortable with a moderately good working understanding of water chemistry in brewing, I wrote those articles.

It's not a be-all and end-all for pro brewers by any means, but I think it may help with some basic understanding for homebrewers.

 

[doug293cz]

After a few BIAB AG batches I did had a bad off taste and after some advice on here I think my water may be part of the problem
I've not done any water treatment before so hoping for some advice here.
...

Can you describe the "bad off taste"? If the water you are using is chlorinated, then there is a chance that the off taste is due to that. The simplest way to deal with both chlorine and choramine in your water is to add about 1/2 a Campden tablet per 10 gal of starting water.

Lack of "hops that pop" can also be due to too much O2 exposure post fermentation. What's your bottling/kegging procedure?

Brew on

 

[cochised]

If you want more of a "Water for Dummies" approach, I wrote a three part article a while back:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-1/
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-2/
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2018/02/13/brewing-water-basics-putting-it-all-together/

Not that you're a dummy- it's me. It took me years reading everything I could about water for brewing, and asking both those two experts above many 'dumb' questions which they patiently answered. Once I felt totally comfortable with a moderately good working understanding of water chemistry in brewing, I wrote those articles.

It's not a be-all and end-all for pro brewers by any means, but I think it may help with some basic understanding for homebrewers.

Cheers
I must admit I'm struggling a bit with the water thing. In all honesty I see it as a means to an end for now, I just want to be able to brew a nice pale and not worry about that aspect of it, for now at least

 

[HTH1975]

Alas not on sale in Ireland anymore I don't think

Do you have Asda in Ireland? Their bottled water is decent for brewing too.

 

[cochised]

ASDA only up north, not down south

 

[HTH1975]

ASDA only up north, not down south

In the absence of big supermarket chains, you probably are best off just using acids to reduce alkalinity. I’d also get a water report so you know what your mineral content looks like.

 

[cochised]

Yeah, gonna sort a report next week or so, defitinely no point worrying about things unless I know my starting point

In meantime I think I'll get some bottled water from Tesco, listed the numbers a little further up the thread so I think a bit of acid addition and some gypsum will help there
Cheers

 

[HTH1975]

Yeah, gonna sort a report next week or so, defitinely no point worrying about things unless I know my starting point

In meantime I think I'll get some bottled water from Tesco, listed the numbers a little further up the thread so I think a bit of acid addition and some gypsum will help there
Cheers

If you’ve got Tesco Ashbeck, you won’t need to reduce alkalinity- it’s already 22ppm, so perfect for light beers.

You can add some gypsum if you want to increase calcium and sulphates. Depends on the style of beer you’re brewing.

 

[cochised]

The Tesco water down south appears to not be Ashbeck anymore
Following are the numbers listed on the Tesco site for their new still water

Ca 79.3
Mag 22
Pot 2
Sod 20
Bicarb 200
Sulph 35
Nitrate 4
Chloride 18

 

[HTH1975]

The Tesco water down south appears to not be Ashbeck anymore
Following are the numbers listed on the Tesco site for their new still water

Ca 79.3
Mag 22
Pot 2
Sod 20
Bicarb 200
Sulph 35
Nitrate 4
Chloride 18

I know they changed their smart-price brand water recently, as above, but the Ashbeck stuff that comes in 5L bottles is still low in calcium and alkalinity. Their website might just have the figures from the cheaper bottles. I’d suggest going to the store and looking on the bottle.

 

[HTH1975]

This is the Ashbeck stuff... https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-...MI693lvPLr4QIVCyjTCh2S7wmLEAQYASABEgLyu_D_BwE

Still shows as alkalinity 25ppm