First time all grain brew questions

[46andbrew]

So I have been reading a lot on this site and online to try and make my first all grain go smooth. I realize it won't be perfect because practice makes perfect. So I have a few question about the process.

Here's what I "know":

I'm going to be doing a simcoe smash with 12 lbs of Maris otter.

I need 3.75 gallons of strike water for a 1.25/lbs ratio

I'm going to heat my water 2* warmer and dump in my tun so I don't have to preheat my mash tun

I'm assuming I just throw my grains in "dough- in" stir and let sit for 60 min stirring a couple times through out.

Now I'm going to Vorlauf which I assume is draining into a pot and pouring back in until clear maybe 3 or four times if that sounds right. Also how much do I drain all the water or 1 gallon or what?

Then I put my sparge water in cover let sit for 20 min then drain into my boil pot to collect 6.5 to 7 gallons or wort.

Then proceed with my boil

I'm sure I'm missing something or I'm off with something. Any input would be great!!



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[chickypad]

For the voulauf it's only a few quarts total (I do about a quart at a time) you pour back through until it's running clear. Then just go ahead and drain the tun as it sounds like you are batch sparging. Also in that case you don't need to let your sparge sit for 20 min. You do need to stir the heck out of it though. Then you can just vorlauf again and start draining. You'll get better efficiency if you try not to leave too much batch sparge water in the tun, so I would measure your first runnings, subtract from your boil volume, then only add that much sparge.

 

[blizz81]

2* warmer water going into an unheated mash tun seems low. It depends on equipment and you'll see what happens with yours after a few tries, but my delta of "temp of water on stove" into an unheated mash tun after adding grains to "target mash temp" was usually in the 10-15 degree range. On sparge, I would usually end up heating to about 185* to try to get around 168*, and would usually come in a bit low (better than a bit high).


Vorlauf, everyone says to run until it's "clear" but it will never get "clear". Run a few pitchers through on both first wort and sparge collections and call it good.


Sounds like you got it for the most part.

 

[Yooper]

Agreed that 2 degrees warmer isn't nearly warm enough to preheat your MLT. Go much warmer than that, but if you have a cooler for a MLT, don't go over 180 degrees as the cooler can warp.

Put the water in the MLT, and when it reaches your strike temp, then add your grain. Stir it in like it owes you money, and then check the temperature in several places. If the temperatures are different, stir some more. Then, once it's thoroughly stirred and the temperature is where it should be, or close, then cover it and walk away. Don't open it up to stir again, as it will lose heat and the temperature will drop.

Vorlaufing and batch sparging was covered by another person above, except for the part about stirring. Vorlauf a quart or so, then drain the MLT. Then measure that, and whatever the difference is between what you have and what you need for your boil volume is the amount of your sparge water. Add the sparge water, and stir that like it owes you money also, then stir it some more. And then, stir again. Vorlauf, and then drain it all out and add to the first runnings.

That's it! No need to let it sit or anything at all.

 

[tootal]

I think you are wise doing a SMASH beer for your first AG. Keep it simple and learn the process and that's what you're doing. I agree with the others and will only say that anything that touches the wort after the boil must be sanitized. I'm sure you have that down but to me it's the most important thing to remember.
Happy brewing!

 

[blizz81]

Be prepared to start being hounded in your head about how you can do every little step a little bit better if you just had __X__ equipment, etc.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Agreed that 2 degrees warmer isn't nearly warm enough to preheat your MLT. Go much warmer than that, but if you have a cooler for a MLT, don't go over 180 degrees as the cooler can warp.

It can be, depending on your system and your process. When I was using a cooler for a mash tun, if I pre-heated the mash tun then I needed to set my strike water for 15° warmer than my target mash temperature. If I didn't pre-heat, then I needed to set the strike water for 17° above target mash temp. And I did hit my target mash temps within a degree. Two degrees can work.

 

[blizz81]

It can be, depending on your system and your process. When I was using a cooler for a mash tun, if I pre-heated the mash tun then I needed to set my strike water for 15° warmer than my target mash temperature. If I didn't pre-heat, then I needed to set the strike water for 17° above target mash temp. And I did hit my target mash temps within a degree. Two degrees can work.

Totally, if it's just the difference between preheating and not. I thought (s)he might be talking about strike water temp vs. target mash temp.

 

[LandoLincoln]

So I have been reading a lot on this site and online to try and make my first all grain go smooth. I realize it won't be perfect because practice makes perfect. So I have a few question about the process.

Here's what I "know":

I'm going to be doing a simcoe smash with 12 lbs of Maris otter.

I need 3.75 gallons of strike water for a 1.25/lbs ratio

I'm going to heat my water 2* warmer and dump in my tun so I don't have to preheat my mash tun

I'm assuming I just throw my grains in "dough- in" stir and let sit for 60 min stirring a couple times through out.

Now I'm going to Vorlauf which I assume is draining into a pot and pouring back in until clear maybe 3 or four times if that sounds right. Also how much do I drain all the water or 1 gallon or what?

Then I put my sparge water in cover let sit for 20 min then drain into my boil pot to collect 6.5 to 7 gallons or wort.

Then proceed with my boil

I'm sure I'm missing something or I'm off with something. Any input would be great!!

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Personally, I'd go with a 1.5 quarts per pound mash, unless your mash tun can't handle that kind of volume. 12 pounds of grain with a 1.5 ratio would mean that you need at least 5.5 gallons of space. Preferably closer to 6. If your cooler is only 5 gallons, then, sure, go with 1.25. It'll be fine.

Adding in all of the water first and then adding in the grain means that you're going to get a lot of doughballs that you're going to have to spend time breaking up. Ideally, you'd like to start draining in the water, adding some grain, stirring it, add more grain, stir, add grain, stir until all of the water and grain is all added in. It helps a lot to have a friend dump the grain while you stir.

Since this is your first time and you don't know this system yet, you're probably not going to hit your target mash temps. Have a gallon of really cold water and a half gallon of boiling water at the ready in case you need to stir in a bit of either to adjust the mash temp quickly. If you're 2-3 degrees too hot, you can just stir the mash for a few minutes and then you should be good. If the mash is hotter than that, then you should add a pint of cold water to help it along. Stir it up, check temps again, add more cold water if necessary. It's easy to add too much cold water and then be low on target mash temps, so go easy on it.

Take notes so you know for next time what your strike temps should be.

After you get to within a degree or so of the target mash, take a sheet of aluminum foil and lay it on top of the mash to help keep the heat in the mash bed, then close the lid and leave it alone for the full 60 minutes. The enzymes can do their job just fine without being stirred up periodically.

 

[46andbrew]

Thanks guys lots of good info here. My 2 biggest questions were defiantly answered. As far as voulaufing and dough-in process. I have been doing extract with stepping grains for about 2 years so most of my other processes are good. Thanks


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[46andbrew]

So I just realized something. When I said I'm going to hear my water 2* warmer I meant warmer than my target strike water temp. U guys said 10 to 15 degrees which would mean 175 to 180 for strike water temp and let I cool to 165-168 depending on grain temp. Which one is correct for a preheat


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[kombat]

When I said I'm going to hear my water 2* warmer I meant warmer than my target strike water temp.

Why would you do that? Do you expect your strike water to cool 2° in the time it takes you to carry it from the burner to the mash tun?

U guys said 10 to 15 degrees which would mean 175 to 180 for strike water temp and let I cool to 165-168 depending on grain temp. Which one is correct for a preheat

Maybe there's a terminology issue here.

"Strike water" is the water you use to initially dough-in with. It's not water + grain, it's JUST water. The temperature of the strike water is just that - the temperature to which you heat it while it's in the hot liquor tank (HLT), which on a homebrew scale, is just another way of saying "plain old pot."

When you add the strike water to your mash tun, it's going to cool a bit, because your mash tun is (usually) quite a bit cooler than your strike water and thus will absorb some of the heat. Likewise, your milled grains are also sitting at room temperature, so when you add them to the water, the water will cool further. This is why people were advising you to shoot for a strike water temperature of 10-15° above your goal overall mash temperature.

If you preheat your mash tun, then obviously it will suck less heat from your strike water. But your grains will still drop the temperature a little bit.

Theoretically, if you filled your mash tun to the brim with hot water and preheated it to precisely your target mash temperature, and you preheated your grains in an oven also at the target mash temperature, then you could dough-in with strike water at exactly your goal mash temperature and be right on (after draining the pre-heating water from your mash tun, of course). In reality, however, it's more practical to simply figure out how much heat your mash tun and grains are going to absorb, and overshoot your strike water temperature accordingly so that the overall mash temperature settles exactly where you want it. This takes a little practice and experimentation to "dial in" that temperature difference on your specific system (and will vary a little depending on the size of your grain bill), but typically, you'll want to overshoot by (as others mentioned) 10-15°.

Long story short, if you want a mash temperature of 148° F, then heat your strike water to 160-165° and adjust it with a little boiling/cold water as needed until you figure out the right temperatures for your specific system.

 

[RyanSpeed]

A couple notes to your steps and comments that I saw others talk about... First, your strike water needs to be more than 2 degrees higher than your target mash temp. I do ten gallon batches and I had my strike at 163 for a 152 mash temp with 20 lbs of grain. I use brewpal app and it tells me exactly how much water to use and what temp I need according to my grain bill. Next, you need to "mash out"... Meaning once you are done your mash you need to bring the temp up to 170 and rest for at least 20 minutes. Once you get your mash to 170 evenly throughout you should stir it one final time and STOP stirring. Leave the grain bed to settle. DO NOT stir again after Vorlauf like I read another post recommended. I mean you can if you want to Vorlauf for an hour?! Next, I get my sparge going before and continue while vorlauffing... This will give you a little barrier of water on top the grain bed so you don't disturb your grains and create channels, very important to avoid this. Also you want to vorlauff slowly, don't pull too fast or above mentioned channels will be formed leaving behind precious sugars. Mashing is a very important part of your brew day, hope this all helps. Enjoy all grain brewing!

 

[RyanSpeed]

Just saw some recent comments... It depends on your equipment a bit as well. Practice makes perfect. But just to reiterate, I posted a picture of my setup, my mash tun is on the right, during my most recent brew, I heated my strike water to 163 directly in my mash tun and once I added the 20 lbs of grain it dropped to exactly 152. Also to note I had 6.4 gallons of strike water for a 1.5 qt/lb ratio. Once I doughed in my mash temp was exactly 152. Like I said, use the brew pal app, and it will calculate how much strike water you need and at what temp according to your grain bill. Lastly, if you heat your strike water in a separate vessel than your mash tun then yes give it another degree or two, but this again will vary according to how much water and what equipment you use for your mash tun. Give it a go, and if you are off a degree or two, then note it for the next brew!

 

[kombat]

Generally good advice (and great picture!), but I'd offer a slight counterpoint re: mashing out.

Next, you need to "mash out"... Meaning once you are done your mash you need to bring the temp up to 170 and rest for at least 20 minutes. Once you get your mash to 170 evenly throughout you should stir it one final time and STOP stirring. Leave the grain bed to settle.

First off, I'm not sure how he's supposed to bring the temperature of his mash up by 20 degrees while it's in a cooler mash tun. If you intend to accomplish that with an infusion, it would have to be an infusion of boiling water, and would be a pretty substantial amount, wouldn't it?

Secondly, I question the necessity of the "mash out" anyway. The stated purpose of the mash out is to denature the enzymes, halt conversion, and decrease the viscosity of the wort, allowing it to more easily flow through the grain bed.

Examining these purposes point-by-point, the enzymes will be denatured soon enough in the boil. After a 60 minute mash, complete conversion will be achieved anyway, so there's nothing to "halt." And the wort will drain easily enough at mash temperatures; the higher temperature of the sparge water (which should be 170° F) will take care of rinsing much of the sticky, residual sugars from the grain husks.

Next, I get my sparge going before and continue while vorlauffing... This will give you a little barrier of water on top the grain bed so you don't disturb your grains and create channels, very important to avoid this.

That's appropriate advice if you're fly sparging, but as this is the OP's first all-grain brew, I had assumed he'd be batch sparging, in which case he would drain his first runnings entirely, then close the valve and add his sparge water all at once, followed by a good, hearty stir. But for fly sparging, you're absolutely right, you want to keep an inch or so of water on top of the grain bed to help prevent channeling.

Also you want to vorlauff slowly, don't pull too fast or above mentioned channels will be formed leaving behind precious sugars.

Agreed. Moreover, even just starting and stopping the flow during vorlaufing can disturb the grain bed. An ideal approach is to allow the wort to continuously flow during vorlaufing, which can be achieved by employing a grant, which is essentially just a small bucket into which you drain the runnings before pumping or pouring them back into the mash tun until the runnings have cleared enough to redirect into the boil kettle instead of returning them to the mash tun. That way, once you've opened the valve on your mash tun and begun slowly drawing runnings, you never actually close the valve again until you've drained the wort entirely into the kettle (at which point you'd dump in your 170°F sparge water, stir like mad, then let the grain bed settle again before repeating).

 

[RyanSpeed]

Could be a valid point, but I read in a couple books before to mash out. I never questioned it, just what I do. Also, I'm not sure your reasoning of everything will be halted when you boil anyways is reason enough to venture away from mashing out. That to me is like saying don't wash your kettle ever because once you boil it will sanitize the kettle anyways. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong just telling the originator of this thread that is what I do. Lastly, if you have a cooler mash tun, it would depend on how you sparge, and since I don't I'm not going to suggest a way to accomplish mash out because I am just a novice at best on my own setup let alone a setup such as yours.

 

[RyanSpeed]

Also I've never batch sparged so my knowledge on that is limited

 

[Yooper]

Could be a valid point, but I read in a couple books before to mash out. I never questioned it, just what I do. Also, I'm not sure your reasoning of everything will be halted when you boil anyways is reason enough to venture away from mashing out. That to me is like saying don't wash your kettle ever because once you boil it will sanitize the kettle anyways. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong just telling the originator of this thread that is what I do. Lastly, if you have a cooler mash tun, it would depend on how you sparge, and since I don't I'm not going to suggest a way to accomplish mash out because I am just a novice at best on my own setup let alone a setup such as yours.

Mashing out is never required with batch sparging. The mash tun is drained, and then the sparge water added. There is no advantage or reason to mashing out with a batch sparge. It overly complicates matters, with no reason.

Channelling is not an issue, either. Open the valve, vorlauf, and let 'er rip.

 

[RyanSpeed]

Thanks yopper! That explains why I suggested mashing out, I fly sparge so I guess I assumed it was necessary for batch sparring as well

 

[46andbrew]

Thanks for clarification. I was a little confused for a minute there but I will be batch sparging. Also about something I was asking before about preheating. I realize I need my strike water temp about 165 to reach a mash temp of 150 or so but what I was saying is that in order to preheat my mash tun I would hear my strike water to 168 or so let it sit in the tun until it cooled to 165 then add my grains and stir. Does that sound about right or am I off with that assumption. Thanks


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[RyanSpeed]

What is your grain bill? And do you want to use a 1.25 ratio qts/gal for a specific reason? I saw you mentioned a 1.25 ratio previously...

 

[46andbrew]

Basically I read some info on this site suggesting 1.25 and a couple recipes suggested the same so that's what is was assuming


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[RyanSpeed]

Ok so how many lbs of grain are you planning to use in your next recipe? And what style beer is it? I cannot verify whether or not 1.25 ratio is good or bad, I just know I always did 1.5... Maybe someone else that knows will answer that for you...

 

[46andbrew]

It's a smash 12 lbs of Maris otter and simcoe hops. I believe the recipe calls for 15 quarts of strike water


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[Yooper]

Thanks for clarification. I was a little confused for a minute there but I will be batch sparging. Also about something I was asking before about preheating. I realize I need my strike water temp about 165 to reach a mash temp of 150 or so but what I was saying is that in order to preheat my mash tun I would hear my strike water to 168 or so let it sit in the tun until it cooled to 165 then add my grains and stir. Does that sound about right or am I off with that assumption. Thanks


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What I was saying is that if you add 168 degree water to the mash tun, especially if it's a cooler mash tun, it will drop more than 2 degrees to preheat it.

If the mash tun is room temperature, say 75 degrees, in order to preheat so that it doesn't lose heat, you'd want to add water that is about 175-180, and then let it cool to 165 before mashing it.

What kind of MLT (and size) do you have?

 

[RyanSpeed]

This is what I got from brew pal for temps and amounts...

 

[RyanSpeed]

I should mention, if your target mash temp is higher then your strike water temp will change. Yopper is right, though the additional temp needed to heat your mash tun will be something you will have to figure out through trials and experience with your equipment.

 

[tootal]

30 minutes at 150 degrees might be good for a professional but unless you're making talcum powder out of your malt I would go for an hour. A stuck sparge is no fun, that's why I err to the side of a larger mill setting and just mash longer. If your malt was milled at the LHBS I would definitely mash longer.

 

[46andbrew]

What I was saying is that if you add 168 degree water to the mash tun, especially if it's a cooler mash tun, it will drop more than 2 degrees to preheat it.



If the mash tun is room temperature, say 75 degrees, in order to preheat so that it doesn't lose heat, you'd want to add water that is about 175-180, and then let it cool to 165 before mashing it.



What kind of MLT (and size) do you have?

Thanks yooper that defiantly clears things up. Each little tasty bit of info helps


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[RyanSpeed]

@tootal... I always mash at 1hr too... I guess 30 minutes was default setting on that app... Good catch

 

[ja09]

What I was saying is that if you add 168 degree water to the mash tun, especially if it's a cooler mash tun, it will drop more than 2 degrees to preheat it.

If the mash tun is room temperature, say 75 degrees, in order to preheat so that it doesn't lose heat, you'd want to add water that is about 175-180, and then let it cool to 165 before mashing it.

What kind of MLT (and size) do you have?

This is good advice. My first AG lost close to 10* transferring from HLT (boil kettle) to MLT (cooler). Had to transfer it back to the kettle to heat again.

Also make sure your false bottom is positioned correctly and OPEN THE VALVE VERY SLOWLY for the vorlauf. I've had so many issues with stuck sparges in my stupid cooler that now I mash in a bag and love it.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Thanks for clarification. I was a little confused for a minute there but I will be batch sparging. Also about something I was asking before about preheating. I realize I need my strike water temp about 165 to reach a mash temp of 150 or so but what I was saying is that in order to preheat my mash tun I would hear my strike water to 168 or so let it sit in the tun until it cooled to 165 then add my grains and stir. Does that sound about right or am I off with that assumption. Thanks

Typically, if you want to pre-heat your mash tun, you'd add about a half-gallon or so of boiling water to your mash tun about 10 minutes before you're ready to start mashing in, and let that water sit in there until you're ready. Then you'd dump that water and then begin to mash in. The theory being that a cold mash tun sucks up a lot of heat. In my own testing with my own equipment, I found out that if I didn't bother heating up my mash tun, I only lost an extra 2°, so instead of pre-heating the mash tun I'd just heat the strike water an extra 2°.

Coolers aren't really designed for water that hot, and some coolers start to warp after repeated pre-heats like that. Which is another reason why I was against pre-heating my cooler mash tun.

 

[roger_tucker]

You do need to stir the heck out of it though.

Out of curiosity what is your definition of "stir the heck out of it"? I get about 68% efficiency out of batch sparge. I hear people regularly claiming they get upwards of 75% doing a batch sparge. I probably stir for less than a minute. Can I get a 5 point bump if I stir more?

 

[LandoLincoln]

Also make sure your false bottom is positioned correctly and OPEN THE VALVE VERY SLOWLY for the vorlauf. I've had so many issues with stuck sparges in my stupid cooler that now I mash in a bag and love it.

This is probably the most important thing to know. DON'T drain from the mash tun too fast! The grains will get severely compacted into the false bottom or manifold and you'll be getting nowhere fast. It's not just the vorlauf either. The whole mashing out process should not be rushed. I recommend watching to get an idea of what the trickle of wort should be like from your mash tun. Stuck sparges are a real pain.

 

[Yooper]

Out of curiosity what is your definition of "stir the heck out of it"? I get about 68% efficiency out of batch sparge. I hear people regularly claiming they get upwards of 75% doing a batch sparge. I probably stir for less than a minute. Can I get a 5 point bump if I stir more?

Maybe.

Efficiency is related to the crush, the mash and sparge pH, the amount of sparge water, etc, as well, but the agitation to "knock" the sugars off of the grain plays a part.

Stir it thoroughly, then stir some more. Stir again, and stir some more. Then vorlauf and drain. That's about it!

 

[Yooper]

This is probably the most important thing to know. DON'T drain from the mash tun too fast! The grains will get severely compacted into the false bottom or manifold and you'll be getting nowhere fast. It's not just the vorlauf either. The whole mashing out process should not be rushed. I recommend watching John Palmer's video on all-grain brewing to get an idea of what the trickle of wort should be like from your mash tun. Stuck sparges are a real pain.

While I don't argue with Palmer, for batch sparging there is no advantage to a slow drain (aside from a stuck sparge if your system is prone to that). Fly (continous) sparging is a different matter, of course!

Check out: http://dennybrew.com/ Denny is an authority on batch sparging, and his info is great.

 

[chickypad]

Out of curiosity what is your definition of "stir the heck out of it"? I get about 68% efficiency out of batch sparge. I hear people regularly claiming they get upwards of 75% doing a batch sparge. I probably stir for less than a minute. Can I get a 5 point bump if I stir more?

I totally agree with everything Yooper said above, I like the "stir it like it owes you money then stir some more" directions. That said, I think the actual stir time for me may only be a minute or two, until my arm gets tired. I only batch sparge on my small 3 gal batches, but I do get about the same 77-79% efficiency that I get on my larger fly sparge system. IMO the main thing is consistency, as long as it's something reasonable which I would consider over 65%. An extra lb of grain here or there is not that big a deal to me.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I hope that we haven't overloaded you with info, OP. All-grain brewing looks a lot harder than it actually is. You're going to screw up some things. Everybody does. Learn from it and improve your process for next time. Find out what works for you.

 

[roger_tucker]

as long as it's something reasonable which I would consider over 65%. An extra lb of grain here or there is not that big a deal to me.

I mostly agree with this, but I want to be that dude who can brag.