First Starter: Needed? Process ok?

[jalgayer]

Hi All,
For a week or so I have been reading and watching videos on starters and it seems that everyone has a little different twist or opinion of what to do.

I really, really read a lot of contradicting ideas from not using one... to just using two yeast packs... to using a air lock... to using/not using an E. Flask.

Here is my situation and info:

~ I am making an extract belgian dubbel from a kit from northern brewer.
~ It has a listed OG 1.062 and recommends using a starter
~ I am using WYEAST 1214 Belgian Abbey (one of those smack packs)
~ According to here: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html I will need 1 pack and 1.35 liters of starter

So here is what I plan to do:

~ Activate the 'smack pack' of yeast about 24 hours before I make starter
~ Use about 4 cups of water and 1 cup DME
~ Stir DME into water in a sanitize pot.
~ Boil for 15 minutes -- cool in ice bath to about 68 degrees
~ Add to a sanitized growler and add yeast
~ Loosely seal with lid or tin foil
~ Let sit at 68-72 for about 48 hours.
~ Brew as I normally would and add the entire starter

Please let me know how this looks.
Also, is it ok to do without an airlock? I dont have one that fits the growler. If tinfoil or the lid (slightly cracked) isnt good... what should I do?

Thanks for answering. You guys are the best.

Jason

 

[cvstrat]

Yeah you don't need an airlock. Just make sure the foil stays on so nothing gets in. Just kinda loosely cover the top. Alternatively you could pitch two vials, but that gets expensive if you do it often.

 

[LiquidAthlete]

sounds good for a first time. Use foil though not the lid as you get used to your system and do a little more research you'll find some thing that will help you. Also make sure your starter is the same starting gravity as your wort. Good luck.

 

[jalgayer]

I thought the starter was supposed to be at most 1.040? Does it really need to be the same as the wort? I am confused... I though the idea was to give the yeast an "easy time" to get munching... Anyone?

 

[Yooper]

I thought the starter was supposed to be at most 1.040? Does it really need to be the same as the wort? I am confused... I though the idea was to give the yeast an "easy time" to get munching... Anyone?

Yes, I agree with that. A starter in the 1.030-1.040 range will encourage yeast reproduction without stressing the yeast. I use 1/2 cup DME to 2 cups water.

 

[jalgayer]

So does it look right that I need 1.35 liters?
And will that mean that I need 1 cup dme and 4 cups water? What do you say yooper?
Thanks!

 

[cvstrat]

It should be 1.040 max. Use 100 grams DME per litre of water so in this case use 135 grams. This will give you roughly 1.040ish and you'll be good to go. Also I'd recommend activating the smack pack 3 hours before you pitch as recommended on the package.

 

[cvstrat]

If you have a digital scale weight it instead of using a measuring cup. Otherwise just eyeball it and throw it in there.

 

[Newbeerguy]

I have found that if I boil the 1 cup DME and 4 cups water that afterwords I boiled off too much water and the O.G. of the starter is too high and the volume of wort is too small. So What I do and it works well for me is 5 1/2 cups water to 1 cup DME, boil for 10 mins. That leaves me with around 4 1/2 cups of 1.036 wort. I would cover with a sanatized piece of foil not an airlock.

 

[jalgayer]

cvstrat,
you are saying that 24 hours is too long? Just activate, then let it sit for 3 hours... then make the starter?

Also, I have no way of knowing how much 135 grams is (without getting a scale yet).

Can you help me with how to do it with measuring cups? How much DME and water?
I am seeing that 1.35 liters is about 5.7 cups. So if I went with 5.5 cups of water and 1.25 cups dme does that look good?

Does my process look good otherwise?

 

[jalgayer]

I have found that if I boil the 1 cup DME and 4 cups water that afterwords I boiled off too much water and the O.G. of the starter is too high and the volume of wort is too small. So What I do and it works well for me is 5 1/2 cups water to 1 cup DME, boil for 10 mins. That leaves me with around 4 1/2 cups of 1.036 wort. I would cover with a sanatized piece of foil not an airlock.

Would others agree that this seems reasonable? I would love someone to 2nd this or adjust if needed as I can understand and measure this appropriately.

Thanks guys!
You rule, really!

Jason

 

[Yooper]

Don't bother to activate- just make the starter, cool it and add the yeast.

If you don't have a scale, 1/2 cup DME to 2 cups of water works well. Just double (or triple) as needed, to get your desired starter size. So, 6 cups of water and 1.5 cups of DME seems about right.

 

[jalgayer]

Yoop-
When you say dont bother to activate... Do you mean its BAD to do or NOT NECESSARY?

I should still break that little pack that is inside right?

Jason

 

[jalgayer]

Also, once I add the yeast... is about 48 hours good to wait to add to wort?

 

[Beavdowg]

Why does everyone advise against an airlock for a starter?

 

[Blender]

I would just smack the pack and when it begins to swell add it to the starter wort. If the yeast is fresh it whould be less than an hour. Be sure to shake or aerate the wort before adding the yeast.

You should also shake it every couple of hours if you are around to keep the yeast suspended and multiplying. It should be done in 48 hours as well.

 

[remilard]

Why does everyone advise against an airlock for a starter?

It discourages gas exchange.

 

[remilard]

A couple of thoughts.

You either want to pitch the starter at high krausen or after it has completely fermented out. High krausen is going to be at 12-24 hours. If I want to pitch at high krausen I make my starter the night before brew day (and I typically pitch mid afternoon).

If you want to pitch a fermented out started, I would give it 48 hours and then another 12-24 in the fridge to drop most of the yeast. Then you can decant most of the starter wort and pitch a thick slurry.

When I can't use my stir plate (because I am making two starters simultaneously) I prefer to use a 2 liter PET bottle (eg from soda). Since the bottle is flexible, I can intermittently shake it (to bring c02 out of solution), squeeze it to get all the c02 out, release it to suck air in, and then shake it again to get the 02 from the air into solution.

I believe this is the best practical method of starter making without a stir plate due to the gas exchange from squeezing and releasing the bottle.

Shaking a growler will do a good job of getting c02 out of solution (which is good for the yeast too) but not as good of a job of getting 02 back into solution.

 

[Weezknight]

If you want to pitch a fermented out started, I would give it 48 hours and then another 12-24 in the fridge to drop most of the yeast. Then you can decant most of the starter wort and pitch a thick slurry.

To pitch the slurry after decanting, what's the best way to get it all out? Should I just put some water in and swish it around before pitching it?

 

[remilard]

To pitch the slurry after decanting, what's the best way to get it all out? Should I just put some water in and swish it around before pitching it?

When you decant, leave behind enough starter wort to get the yeast pourable.

 

[passedpawn]

• 1 cup DME for each 4 cups water. 1.040. The comment about creating a wort which is the same as your intended beer is incorrect.
• The DME/water will boil over rapidly. I'm guessing you will have a boilover. Really. It is so fast, so be ready to turn down the heat and/or pull the pot off the burner quickly. Fermcap-S (best price is Northern Brewer) will nearly eliminate this problem.
• The whole process is a lot simpler if you just do it all in a borosilicate flask. Some brew shops sell them. You can boil in them right on the stove (except electric coil), cool in them, you don't need to sterilize anything. The boil takes care of it.
• Foil yes, airlock no
• Consider a stirplate in the future. You will see why soon. The yeast really get active with any agitation of the starter. BTW, the stir bar can be boiled with the starter wort.
• Smackpack will bloat in a few hours, typically. Older smack packs will take longer. Don't pitch into starter wort until it bloats. Once it bloats, go ahead and pitch - the yeast are ready to eat. If it doesn't bloat within 48 hrs., I'd replace it.

 

[passedpawn]

To pitch the slurry after decanting, what's the best way to get it all out? Should I just put some water in and swish it around before pitching it?

I decant just before I transfer from the cooled boil pot to carboy. While transferring, I add a bit of the new wort to the yeast.

I guess a little water wouldn't hurt, but his is easier and safer than adding water.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I think your plan is fine though the caution about the boiloff is true you will need at least one more cup of water to compensate for boiloff. 5 1/2 cups sounds about right in my experience.

You can activate or not activate it really doesn't matter since you are making a starter. You should smack the pack before pitching whether you wait for swell or not, since there is yeast nutrient in there that is beneficial to your starter.

 

[passedpawn]

I would recommend always waiting for bloating before creating your wort. This ensures viable yeast and rapid fermentation in the starter. Decreases the chance of growing anything else in the starter!

I have had smack packs take 48 hrs to start bloating... that would have been a long time to let sweet wort sit at room temperature.

 

[Beavdowg]

• The whole process is a lot simpler if you just do it all in a borosilicate flask. Some brew shops sell them. You can boil in them right on the stove (except electric coil), cool in them, you don't need to sterilize anything. The boil takes care of it.

I've wanted to do this also, boil right in the flask, but I've been wondering how you know what the temp of the starter wort is before you pitch your yeast. In other words, how do you know if you've cooled your wort enough when it's in the flask? My thermometer isn't long enough to fit down in my 2L flask.

thanks

 

[samc]

I've wanted to do this also, boil right in the flask, but I've been wondering how you know what the temp of the starter wort is before you pitch your yeast. In other words, how do you know if you've cooled your wort enough when it's in the flask? My thermometer isn't long enough to fit down in my 2L flask.

thanks

Laser thermo. Harbor freight for a cheap one, Amazon for more $$$

 

[Beavdowg]

Laser thermo. Harbor freight for a cheap one, Amazon for more $$$

Well ok, but there must be another way without having to buy some tricked out thermometer. Seriously, who wants to spend $50 for a thermometer?

 

[passedpawn]

You can feel room temperature. I have a laser thermometer (and about every other kind). I've never measured that temp of the starter wort. Just cool it until the container feels cool. Swirl first to ensure you are getting the true temp. It'll be fine.

I usually cool quickly in a popcorn bowl full of icewater, then let it come to room temp for an hour or two. As long as you have some foil over the flask, there is nothing to worry about.

 

[Apendecto]

That's the best write up I've seen yet. Thanks!

Would you mind talking about sizes and steps? I understand pitching rate and the Mr. Malty calculator, but can a few yeast cells take on a large starter or should you step it up? For example, I'll be using some Pacman that I took from one bottle of Stout. If I'm going to make Dark Night of the Soul RIS with an OG of 1.1324, Mr. Malty says I need 1995 ml of starter. (Is this of pure yeast or can I just make a 2000 ml starter?) In this case, would I start with a small starter and step it up a few times or go bananas with the 2000 ml?

Thanks.

• 1 cup DME for each 4 cups water. 1.040. The comment about creating a wort which is the same as your intended beer is incorrect.
• The DME/water will boil over rapidly. I'm guessing you will have a boilover. Really. It is so fast, so be ready to turn down the heat and/or pull the pot off the burner quickly. Fermcap-S (best price is Northern Brewer) will nearly eliminate this problem.
• The whole process is a lot simpler if you just do it all in a borosilicate flask. Some brew shops sell them. You can boil in them right on the stove (except electric coil), cool in them, you don't need to sterilize anything. The boil takes care of it.
• Foil yes, airlock no
• Consider a stirplate in the future. You will see why soon. The yeast really get active with any agitation of the starter. BTW, the stir bar can be boiled with the starter wort.
• Smackpack will bloat in a few hours, typically. Older smack packs will take longer. Don't pitch into starter wort until it bloats. Once it bloats, go ahead and pitch - the yeast are ready to eat. If it doesn't bloat within 48 hrs., I'd replace it.

 

[jalgayer]

Thanks... That is a great list and I appreciate it. I used the 1qt water : 1 cup DME ratio and went with ~1.5 of each. Boil water... added DME as the water was getting warm... and there was some boil over. Hope this doesnt mess too much up?

I cooled rapidly in an ice bath and added the swollen yeast pack once the temp hit ~70
into a sterlized growler with a sterilized funnel...

Aerated by swirling shaking carefully... and set in a 68-70 degree closet. It is now 12 hours later and I see so action yet.

Is that ok?

Is there a different kind / timeline of 'action' when a starter is made as opposed to a full wort?

Thanks
Jason

 

[GNBrews]

Jason,

Barring some freak occurrence or residual sanitizer in your starter container, it probably fermented out completely while you weren't watching. If you've got a refractometer, you could check the brix. If it's somewhere around 5-5.5 (assuming you started @10), it's fermented out.

 

[passedpawn]

That's the best write up I've seen yet. Thanks!

Would you mind talking about sizes and steps? I understand pitching rate and the Mr. Malty calculator, but can a few yeast cells take on a large starter or should you step it up? For example, I'll be using some Pacman that I took from one bottle of Stout. If I'm going to make Dark Night of the Soul RIS with an OG of 1.1324, Mr. Malty says I need 1995 ml of starter. (Is this of pure yeast or can I just make a 2000 ml starter?) In this case, would I start with a small starter and step it up a few times or go bananas with the 2000 ml?

Thanks.

I remember in high school math they used to teach all that geometry, calculus, etc. I kept wondering what the heck the problem was that we were so diligently trying to solve. "Teacher, when will I ever use this stuff" was the perpetual question. They should tell you the problem before they give you the solution, right?

So, here, in a nutshell, is The Problem. If you get even a bit of bacteria in your starter wort, it will take over your starter and, consequently, your beer. And the rub is you probably do have a bit of bacteria in there whether you like it or not. Oh, and bacteria grows 6 times faster that yeast (which is a fungus).

The Answer is pretty simple: get some alcohol in there as fast as possible. Alcohol over 2% is going to inhibit bacterial growth.

If you pitch a very small amount of yeast into a large starter wort, it will take a long time for the yeast to get that alcohol concentration up to 2%. Pitching the same amount of yeast into a small amount of wort will push the alcohol percentage up faster, thus protecting your starter. Once it ferments out, add more wort and "step it up".

So, when I pitch a 10ml tube of yeast, I only add about 250ml wort. Still takes about 36 hrs to ferment. Then, I step up to 2L, ferments in 24 hrs. etc. The rule-of-thumb step-up is 10x.

 

[jalgayer]

I dont have a refractometer. Should there be a yeast cake at the bottom? Its been 20 hours and here is what I can tell you about how everything went:

~ I boiled 1.25 qts of water with 1.25 cups DME for about 15minutes
~ I had a little bit of boil over
~ I cooled it to 70 and pitched the yeast
~ I used a sanitized funnel into a sanitized growler and foil capped it
~ I swirled it about every hour from 6pm til 10pm last night and didnt notice any krausen
~ Swirled it at 6am and 7am today then had the wife do it at noon.
~ Got home at 3pm and no kraussen. Top of wort has a 1mm of foam (can barely be called foam)
~ There was a 1-2mm layer of white at the bottom when I got home
~ Last night (and today) I can hear 'fizzing' (I am assuming it is the Co2 escaping.
~ Smells like a belgian trippel (good smelling yeasty)
~ So its been 21 hours and I dont know where I am at?


Anyone with thoughts?

 

[passedpawn]

The foam on top was your krausen. that is the only activity you'll see unless you shake it.

With a stir plate, it's pretty easy. The whole container goes milky when the yeast blooms. Can't miss it. Turning the plate off, the yeast flocs and drops to a very well defined layer of yeast on the bottom.

Shake it. If it bubbles, it's still going. If not, it's done. Pitch. I'd give a starter 24 hrs if you started it from a bloated pack. Honestly, though, it's been so long since I pitched from a smack pack I can't remember how long they took to ferment.

 

[Beavdowg]

I did my first starter last night and, all in all, things went pretty well. I had washed (my first also) some S-05 from an IPA I made a little over a month ago. I made a 2L starter and pitched 2 small jars of washed yeast and let sit at about 70*F. I did as instructed all over these forums and this morning I had a nice inch layer of foam on top and TONS of bubbling up from the bottom of the flask. I'd say it's off and running well! :rockin: I've been swirling the flask every couple hours and hopefully my wife did today as instructed. Here's a couple issues I had last night and a question I have: My biggest issue was I ended up with too little wort. I was shooting for 2L so I boiled 9.5 cups of water with 2 cups of DME. Well when I dumped my wort into my flask I only ended up with about 1600ml of wort. I ended up making some more and adding it in until I got up to 2L. So, my first question is, what's the formula to know how much wort to start your boil with so that I end up with the right amount of wort in the end? My second question pertains more to using washed yeast to make a starter. The washed yeast I pitched into my starter took up approximately 1/4 inch at the bottom of a small mason jar. Since I didn't know how much that was and I knew I was making a relatively larger starter (at 2L) I decided to pitch the yeast from 2 jars. So how can I know how much yeast I'm pitching into my starter when you are using washed yeast? Unless you have graduated jars it seems to be a guess, at best. Any hints, pointers?

thanks

 

[passedpawn]

First,

I wouldn't make a starter from a yeast cake. Ever. I make starters ONLY to grow yeast, and that cake contains more than enough (presuming you save plenty). I don't think I am wrong, but the smarter guys here will definitely let me know if I am.
​

Now then,

Here's how to measure the volume of a cylindrical container. I assume you want to know milliliters. 1 ml = 1 cubic cm. All linear measurements are in cm (centimeters). If you measure in inches, multiply this by 2.54 to get cm.

The volume of your jar, in ml, is:

D * H * 3.14 ​

where

D = diameter of your jar (edge to edge),
H = height of the washed yeast material in jar​

If you always use the same jar, write the D * 3.14 in a sharpie on the jar, then you won't have to remember that.
I don't wash my reclaimed yeast. I also assume that 25% of what I collect is viable yeast.​

 

[Apendecto]

Great info. Thanks! PS I've got my teaching degree in math...

When Mr. Malty says pitch 1995 ml of yeast, does he mean make a 2000 starter and the yeast you get is perfect or should I have a 2000 ml flask topped to the brim with yeast?

Again, thanks.

I remember in high school math they used to teach all that geometry, calculus, etc. I kept wondering what the heck the problem was that we were so diligently trying to solve. "Teacher, when will I ever use this stuff" was the perpetual question. They should tell you the problem before they give you the solution, right?

So, here, in a nutshell, is The Problem. If you get even a bit of bacteria in your starter wort, it will take over your starter and, consequently, your beer. And the rub is you probably do have a bit of bacteria in there whether you like it or not. Oh, and bacteria grows 6 times faster that yeast (which is a fungus).

The Answer is pretty simple: get some alcohol in there as fast as possible. Alcohol over 2% is going to inhibit bacterial growth.

If you pitch a very small amount of yeast into a large starter wort, it will take a long time for the yeast to get that alcohol concentration up to 2%. Pitching the same amount of yeast into a small amount of wort will push the alcohol percentage up faster, thus protecting your starter. Once it ferments out, add more wort and "step it up".

So, when I pitch a 10ml tube of yeast, I only add about 250ml wort. Still takes about 36 hrs to ferment. Then, I step up to 2L, ferments in 24 hrs. etc. The rule-of-thumb step-up is 10x.

 

[passedpawn]

Great info. Thanks! PS I've got my teaching degree in math...

No offense of any kind meant.

When Mr. Malty says pitch 1995 ml of yeast, does he mean make a 2000 starter and the yeast you get is perfect

Yes. But this presumes a certain starting point for your starter, which was likely some number of smack packs. Those contain a 125ml slurry of yeast.

Which probably brings up more questions than answers, huh.

I like to save most of a single yeast cake, then split it between two batches in a 10 gallon brew. Yea, I probably overpitch like crazy when I do that, but I only do that on beers that I want to ferment clean, or huge beers that require a ton of yeast.

 

[Apendecto]

No sweat man and I'm not offended one bit. It's just something you hear all the time..."When are we going to use this..." Struck a chord with me, that's all.

Starters... Seems like someone could write a whole book on them.

Thanks for your help.

No offense of any kind meant.

Yes. But this presumes a certain starting point for your starter, which was likely some number of smack packs. Those contain a 125ml slurry of yeast.

Which probably brings up more questions than answers, huh.

I like to save most of a single yeast cake, then split it between two batches in a 10 gallon brew. Yea, I probably overpitch like crazy when I do that, but I only do that on beers that I want to ferment clean, or huge beers that require a ton of yeast.

 

[Beavdowg]

First,

I wouldn't make a starter from a yeast cake. Ever. I make starters ONLY to grow yeast, and that cake contains more than enough (presuming you save plenty). I don't think I am wrong, but the smarter guys here will definitely let me know if I am.
​

Now then,

Here's how to measure the volume of a cylindrical container. I assume you want to know milliliters. 1 ml = 1 cubic cm. All linear measurements are in cm (centimeters). If you measure in inches, multiply this by 2.54 to get cm.

The volume of your jar, in ml, is:

D * H * 3.14 ​

where

D = diameter of your jar (edge to edge),
H = height of the washed yeast material in jar​

If you always use the same jar, write the D * 3.14 in a sharpie on the jar, then you won't have to remember that.
I don't wash my reclaimed yeast. I also assume that 25% of what I collect is viable yeast.​

I'm not sure I follow you on the " no starter from yeast cake" issue. Isn't that why people wash yeast, so that they can reuse that yeast for another brew? If you have had this yeast in a jar for more than a few days then one would have to make a starter before pitching. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Any pointers on my questions from my previous post?

thanks