First pour of the day has off flavor

[ParanoidAndroid]

As the title states, I am getting an off flavor from the first pour from the tap, if it hasn't been used in a while (say 12+ hours). After I take a small sample out, then pour a full glass, the beer tastes fine. But I'd rather not waste a sample every time to get a good beer.

I'm running a 6 tap keezer with 10 foot beer lines consisting of the EJ Beverage 3/16" Ultra Barrier Microbial product. Taps are the old perlick 525.

Some things I've considered:

-CO2 is coming out of solution in the beer line giving a flat/oxidized taste. Once that is removed, then the proper co2/temp combo beer from the keg comes out.

-Large temp swings from the bottom of the keezer to the top where the beer is dispersed, leading to the warming of the beer at higher levels. Maybe a fan to help this?

-Beer lines aren't balanced properly. Again 10 feet of 3/16" for each tap at ~12 psi.

-Thicker wall beer lines would help keep the beer colder longer with the increased OD.

-Older style Perlicks are giving me problems, maybe replace to the new 630? Haven't had any major leaks. Drips after pours more than I like though.

-Better insulation in the keezer collar (8 inch wood)

Any insight?

The beer carbonation is fine.


Beer Line:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/ultra-barrier-antimicrobial-pvc-free-tubing-316-foot.html

 

[jekeane]

Whats the flavor?

I have found that my lines always leech flavors from beers at some point. and will regularly notice a past beers flavor in the first bit of a pour from a tap that hasn't been pulled all day.

My keezer is in the garage in FL so I will always get a push of foam until the tap cools off its usually about the beer lines worth 1/3 pint or so and I just toss it. I use cheapo food grade beverage lines that are $10-15/ 100' from amazon so if I start picking up something off I don't feel guilty cutting a new 8' and swapping it out.

I have 2 fans in mine and it helps even things out in fact I find the top of my freezer will have some ice crystals occasionally but the bottom condensation won't freeze.

I would suspect you are getting a flatter beer from the lines and it is enough to make a difference in the overall flavor. Assuming your lines aren't leeching anything which yours are advertised to not do.


I would eliminate the 525's as your issue personally. However I am in the market for a few cheap ss ones to add to my keezer so let me know if you go that route : p

 

[day_trippr]

When were the lines last cleaned?

PET lined tubing should not impart any flavor to the beer, and likely isn't permeable enough to flatten the beer in any short order.
But it won't prevent CO2 breakout due to warming, so keeping the air stirred up to avoid temperature stratification is recommended.

As for the tubing length, how reliable are the pours? 10' of 3/16" ID PET lined tubing is on the short side, actually. Most folks using Bev Seal Ultra 235 have found they need to add half-again as much line as standard solid PVC tubing of the same ID, so for 12 psi 18' might be in order...

Cheers!

 

[gnef]

I know that EJ tubing is marketed as antimicrobial, but after a quick search, it looks like there are some others that also have flavor issues like what you describe, and there is still significant oxidation potential.

I'd recommend the Bev-Seal Ultra 235 tubing like mentioned above. It is a dual lined PET barrier on the inside with poly sheathing on the outside, and is supposed to have near zero oxygen permeability. It does have lower restriction for the same ID, and it is fairly rigid. Try swapping out one or two of your lines to see if you can tell the difference. The only thing is I'd also recommend that you change out your fittings for John Guest fittings to make installation easier.

I changed out all my lines for the Bev-Seal Ultra 235 tubing due to plastic taint. For my system, I had to stick with 1/4" ID, so I also had to change out all 14 faucets for 650ss faucets to add restriction, as I wasn't willing to have 40-50 ft of line per tap. I consider this a lifetime line as long as I do my part to maintain the line. I have had zero issues with flavor contamination, and this is the tubing I recommend to everyone.

 

[day_trippr]

"The tubing was lab tested by the famed Weihenstephan University in Germany and then prior to release was tested for years at The New Belgium Brewery.

Antimicrobial - 100% effective against top 4 beverage spoiling bacteria
PVC Free and BPA Free - Contains no DEHP, phthalates or other plasticizers
Environmentally friendly production = does not emit dioxins
Extremely low extractable / extremely low leachables
High flexibility
Remains flexible at lower temperatures
Ultra-low permeability
Barrier properties"

Pretty favorable characteristics/specifications, it's surprisingly there'd be any "taint" or any chance of evident oxidation in the lines using this stuff.
I don't have any experience with this or the Bev Seal Ultra 235 but for sure they're both way above the virtually generic Bevlex 200 solid PVC tubing I use

Cheers!

 

[gnef]

http://www.ejbeverage.com/home-brewing

their own literature says 70% reduced from PVC. I can't find exactly what kind of plastic they use though, just that it is infused with silver ions and good for a couple thousand liters to prevent 4 different types of microbes.

If I remember correctly, the bev seal ultra is near zero oxygen permeability. In a quick search I can't find supporting literature (the accuflex website isn't the greatest to get the engineering docs).

I just recall when I did the research years ago, that was one of the main selling points, along with the lack of plastic taint. I forgot who did all the testing, but the bev seal ultra was the only one that the guy found that did not impart any flavors into the beer, even after lengthy contact time sitting in the tubing. I can't remember if he tried this silver tubing though.

I can attest to the plastic taint, as I used to have PVC tubing, and always had to flush the lines. Once I moved to Bev Seal Ultra 235, I never have to flush the tubing, even after months not using a tap (with 14 lines, this can sometimes happen).

 

[day_trippr]

If this is the thread you were thinking of it was well before this particular line appeared in the marketplace...

Cheers!

 

[gnef]

If this is the thread you were thinking of it was well before this particular line appeared in the marketplace...

Cheers!

Yup, that's the one! There was the similar Tygon silver lined stuff back then as well.

Really, I can't add much more than giving my experience with the Bev Seal Ultra 235, which has been great, and I have not had any off flavors. Basically everything else that I've read about has issues to a certain degree.

I even converted over my three jockey boxes to the line so that I wouldn't have to deal with PVC for my beerline. I do still use PVC for my gas line though.

 

[iijakii]

Flow control faucets and not having 10ft of line is always good, too. Pounding or dumping half an inch versus half a pint is a big difference.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Really, I can't add much more than giving my experience with the Bev Seal Ultra 235, which has been great, and I have not had any off flavors. Basically everything else that I've read about has issues to a certain degree.[...]

Indeed, and don't get me wrong, I've felt the Ultra 235 is the pinnacle of lines for awhile, particularly for those who are genetically inclined to pick up flavors that others can't detect...

Cheers!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I actually used to use the Bev Seal a few years ago. I remember it being a nightmare to get on fittings and the stiffness just being frustrating. Not saying it wasn't good line, just very hard to work with.

I think I am going to try a fan and make sure all my insulation is tight. If that doesn't work, it might be back to Bev Seal.

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

 

[auburntsts]

I actually used to use the Bev Seal a few years ago. I remember it being a nightmare to get on fittings and the stiffness just being frustrating. Not saying it wasn't good line, just very hard to work with.

Just curious but did you soak the ends of the tubing in hot water for a few minutes before attempting to put the tubing on the fittings?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Just curious but did you soak the ends of the tubing in hot water for a few minutes before attempting to put the tubing on the fittings?

Yeah, did that.

 

[day_trippr]

The John Guest fittings are the only way to go with that tubing...

Cheers!

 

[Ashevillain]

I'm curious if anyone has experience using extremely short lines (6") on properly carbonated beer at a low serving pressure (3-5psi)? In my home keezer this seems to work fine! The low pressure seems to prevent any significant amount of CO2 breakout in the headspace (over time you might need to bump it to 10 for a few hours to restore anything that pushed its way out of solution) and can be adjusted for perfect pours on these short lines, then its easy to just replace the lines when needed.