First lager proving challenging--fighting green apple and butter

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Horseflesh

Horseflesh

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I made a Mexican-ish Vienna lager with WLP 940, following the "quick lager" method from Brulosophy... and I am not super happy with it. I am still tasting some butter, and I smell something that might be green apple. However, it may still be too young. I would appreciate some input from lager fans, especially impatient ones!

OG was about 1.051 and I did sequential 1.7L starters, which should have been plenty of cells.

I pitched the yeast at 50F, and per the "quick lager" method I began to slowly increase the temperature once the beer hit 50% attenuation. I actually let it go a little longer, more like 66% attenuation, which happened in about 5 days... I figured slower in this phase could only help, and I was too busy to get to the fermenter anyway.

I ramped up the ferm chamber air temperature by +5F every 12 hours or so, until I got to 65F. 4 days after beginning the warming phase, I tested and tasted because I was curious. At this time gravity was 1.014 and it tasted like a butter bomb! It was also kind of sour and bitter as there was still a lot of yeast in suspension, but I think there was green apple in there too. It was Not Awesome, but also obviously really young.

8 days after that, today, I tasted and tested again. It hit FG, 1.013. There is still some butter and green apple apparent, but it's much better. I finished my 8 oz sample glass, but I wouldn't serve it to anyone!

To recap, I did 5 days at 50F, slowly warmed to 65F over ~2 days, and left it at 65F for another 12 days.

Would you turn up the temperature, or let it cruise at 65F until the chill step?

How long would you wait before tasting again?
 
Leave it at your current temp for another week to help the yeast clean up, then ramp it to lagering temp and hold it there a few weeks. This is not something you'd normally have to do.

If I may, I think your vague information on pitch rate indicates the trouble area, i.e. you did not pitch enough. How many million cells per ml per degree Plato did you pitch?
A fresh package of yeast into 1.7L might do 200-250b cells; a second 1.7L of wort on that would maybe get you to 300b due to the high inoculation rate. That could have been fine if you were doing a small batch.

I am not sure I see the advantage to the method you used; maybe next time just ferment it all the way at 50F and then slowly ramp down to lager for a few weeks. You are already over 3 weeks invested. :)
 
I forget the exact calculator I used but it indicated about 400B cells. It did not seem to penalize you for the increased inoculation rate in the second stage. (This was for 5.75 gal wort, btw.)

Yeah, this "quick" method isn't really helping right now, but maybe I screwed up my starter.

Thanks for the help!
 
yeastcalculator.com says you would need 412b cells for that OG with 5.75gal. Using a 1.037 1.7L starter with a stir plate will get you about 335b cells, and that is with a brand new package of yeast (assuming 100b cells as a starting point). So you're roughly 77b cells short (and honestly I always overshoot my lager yeast starters by at least 50b cells).

Based on that, I'd say you under pitched. While that alone might not be the cause of your off-flavors, it might be a contributing factor.

Lager yeast can be a fickle beast, I've made fantastic lagers and terrible ones using roughly the exact same process.
 
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I make mostly lagers. I ferment cold, usually 48F or less. I NEVER raise the temp for a D-rest. Why? Because if you pitch the right amount of yeast to begin with, oxygenate properly, and maintain consistent temperatures, you don't have a D-problem. The only off flavor i ever experience with lagers is sulfur - fart aroma. This is normal and it always fades around the 2-3 week mark. The fermenter samples never taste green, apply, or buttery.

Only time i ever had butter flavor was the first lager i ever did and i pitched it like an ale. I pitch at least double that now and the issue doesn't resurface.

Brulosophy says its OK to do a lot of things that are considered to be bad brewing practices. If you follow their lead, mediocrity will your limit. If good enough, is good enough for you, then ignore my comment about them.
 

I agree with the others that you most likely did not have enough yeast as your beer should of been close to FG in 5 days. You could of also had a high percentage of mutant yeast which I believe are unable to process the by products of fermentation.

A slight green apple like esters is a character of the American lager yeast WLP840 not sure if it also part of the Mexican lager yeast. The butter is diacetyl and you can test for that that.
​
I use the method outlined by Mike "Tasty" Mcdole, start at a temp in the recommended range then bump by 2 or 3 degrees as beer hit 50% and 75% of it's expected attenuation. Bump up to upper 60s when it hits 90% of it's expected attenuation and hold for a few day as a diacetyl rest. He starts at 55 so 75% of the fementation is happening below 60F. I start at 50F and do the diacetyl rest at 61F. For me with most yeast 50% usually happens in 24 to 36hrs then another 24hrs for 75% and another 24hrs to get to 90%. Sometime it takes 48hrs to hit 50% but my beers are ready to lager in 7 to 10days. Go by what the yeast is doing not strictly the clock.
 
I did do two 1.7 L starters sequentially... if one got me to 335B, I'd expect the second stage to get me to the target, if not more. Right?

Oh, I did oxygenate with 1 minute of 1 LPM O2, too, through a stainless diffusion wand.

However my taster ain't lying and something is amiss!

I'll try a less aggressive protocol next time and make sure I have a burly starter. Knew it was risky when I tried the quick temperature ramp, but I do like to experiment with cutting corners.

Thanks again.
 
How old was your yeast, what was the mfg or use by dates?

If you did a 1.7L starter then did another 1.7L starter with the resulting yeast you are stressing the first yeast you built up. You want to give the yeast plenty of resources. You would of been better to take a percentage of the yeast from the first step and seed a second 1.7L start or divide your initial into multiple 1.7L starters.

I like the brewunited calculator as it turns fields red when you are outside of best practices. It still does funny thing like adding an extra step even when you are very close to the target but you can manually override the steps once calculated. I like to have similar growth for each step instead of big growth in one step and small growth for the last.
 
Horseflesh said:
I did do two 1.7 L starters sequentially... if one got me to 335B, I'd expect the second stage to get me to the target, if not more. Right?
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. However, you need to "step" the starters in order to keep the yeasties happy. In other words, you would do a .5L starter, then a 1L, then 1.5L, etc.

Also, the manufacture date on the package is a very important piece of information to know. If the yeast was even a couple months old, then the cell count would have significantly degraded.
 
Looks like I have more reading to do on starters.

The yeast was special ordered from my LHBS but sat in my fridge for a month before use. I confess I didn't check the pack date so yeah, it could have been a few months old in total.

I suppose my sloppy ale practices need an update. This is the first time in a long time a brew hasn't worked out! This is a new ballgame.
 
lagers are not really that much more difficult or different from brewing ales. Most likely you had yeast issues or your beer would of probably been just fine with your ferment times. Dust off the stir plate and make some more yeast, I would not repitch from your last batch.

This is a good site for lager information
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

How to do a diacetyl test, there are other sites with more detailed info
https://www.winning-homebrew.com/diacetyl-test.html

more detailed info on diacetyl
https://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/Diacetyl_Time_Line.pdf
 
Will do.

On the subject of lagers... while I would like to master the Mexican yeast just 'cuz I like the idea of a Mexican-inspired lager, what dry yeast would you guys recommend? I have read that W-34/70 is nice and reliable.
 
Cant really help on dry yeast I primarily use liquid, but have used W-34/70 and S-23 with acceptable results. Like all yeasts people have their preferences but W-34/70 will get the job done and seems fairly predictable.

The Mexican lager yeast you first tried is on my list of yeasts to try.
 
I do 1.5L for the first step from a smack pack, and then 3.0L in a second step.

Usually a smack pack into 1.5L is more typical for an ale pitch.

So yah, you pitched half.
 
Horseflesh said:
I made a Mexican-ish Vienna lager with WLP 940, following the "quick lager" method from Brulosophy... and I am not super happy with it. I am still tasting some butter, and I smell something that might be green apple. However, it may still be too young. I would appreciate some input from lager fans, especially impatient ones!

OG was about 1.051 and I did sequential 1.7L starters, which should have been plenty of cells.

I pitched the yeast at 50F, and per the "quick lager" method I began to slowly increase the temperature once the beer hit 50% attenuation. I actually let it go a little longer, more like 66% attenuation, which happened in about 5 days... I figured slower in this phase could only help, and I was too busy to get to the fermenter anyway.

I ramped up the ferm chamber air temperature by +5F every 12 hours or so, until I got to 65F. 4 days after beginning the warming phase, I tested and tasted because I was curious. At this time gravity was 1.014 and it tasted like a butter bomb! It was also kind of sour and bitter as there was still a lot of yeast in suspension, but I think there was green apple in there too. It was Not Awesome, but also obviously really young.

8 days after that, today, I tasted and tested again. It hit FG, 1.013. There is still some butter and green apple apparent, but it's much better. I finished my 8 oz sample glass, but I wouldn't serve it to anyone!

To recap, I did 5 days at 50F, slowly warmed to 65F over ~2 days, and left it at 65F for another 12 days.

Would you turn up the temperature, or let it cruise at 65F until the chill step?

How long would you wait before tasting again?
Click to expand...

I have only made 3 lagers and only used wlp833 the first two I fermented in the high 40’s and let it go for almost a month the last lager I made I used the quick lager method and was not happy with it at all. Even my brother in law who is not a beer guy said it tasted fruity
 
I would advise caution regarding ripping on the "quick lager method" as being the source of any potential issues one might experience... Pro breweries certainly do not lager for two months, they're cranking out those batches in 4-6 weeks (but even the pros are not immune to releasing beer that is not ready...). Many factors come into play to get a beer "ready" on such a tight schedule, yeast health and pitch rate are big ones and I can see pitch rate as a possible issue here. You can't pitch a starter into another of the same size and expect much growth, I go from 1-1.5L into ~2.5L (usually overbuilding to decant 250-500mL into a mason jar for future re-culturing).

Your under-pitch will have produced some excessive diacetyl and acetaldehyde, the low cell count is slower to attenuate and then re-uptake and break down these compounds. If the cells are too tired/stressed from the under-pitch, they will not completely clean up the beer, best case is leave it for a week or two warm and they slowly clean it up below detection threshold.

You really can't hold beer to a strict x-y-z fermentation schedule of specific numbers of days for each fermentation step. What is presented in the Brülosophy lager method is what is simply possible under 100% ideal conditions, but you will have to modify accordingly to suit your individual circumstance.

I'll briefly outline a nearly fool-proof lager method. Start with an appropriate pitch rate for the beer you are making (*key*). Chill wort to 48-50F, innoculate and allow to free-rise up to a max of 55F (yeast are happy to warm up in the beer, cooling them down in the beer turns them off and they won't restart, or restart poorly). Monitor SG, at ~70% attenuation, allow beer temp to free-rise above 60F up to a max of 75F (considering your ambient could potentially be 90F+ if your keezer is in a Florida garage... I can't say turn off all temp control). Hold warm temp for minimum of 10 days then check for clean up of acetaldehyde and diacetyl. If passed, you are clear to cold crash, fin/filter if you do so, and package/carbonate as per your normal procedures. If not passed... it needs more time to clean up. Check every 2-3 days until it either cleans up or stalls out.

Pitching lots of healthy yeast with plenty of nutrients and oxygen will give you great, clean beer in the fastest possible time-frame :) Poor yeast health/not enough cells will cause off flavors and delayed completion of fermentation. I generally only have issues when I try to be cheap and pitch from an old (8 months+) jar of slurry I've been saving in the fridge.
 
I agree with schematix, I stopped doing D rests and have gotten BETTER results actually.

If you want to speed up your lagering, just cut down on the lager time, not the ferment time or temp. Go a couple weeks at 45-50F, ramp up to room temp for 48 hours (to ensure fermentation is over) and then cold crash for as long as you can wait, be it 3 days or 6 weeks.

I mostly use dry yeast, especially for lagers. Most lager strains can be traced back to only a few. I mostly prefer 34/70, very clean and forgiving. S-23 would be my choice for hoppy beers or anytime I wanted some ester character, but I learned my lesson about using it on American Light Lagers!

The sulfur taste/smell is something I notice with all lager yeasts, maybe even more with 34/70, but it always goes away within a couple of weeks.
 
After waiting a couple more weeks, the beer isn't much improved. I chilled and carbed a sample and it is drinkable, but I wouldn't serve it to any of you guys. ;) I probably totally pooched the starter.

Once I decided it had stopped improving (at least at a perceptible rate) I chilled it and fined it with gelatin, and kegged it with priming sugar. I'm going to put it in the closet and forget about it for a while. We'll see what happens. Even if the fermentation flaws improve, the recipe sucked anyway... but I want to see what happens.

I'll resume my lager trials with a simple recipe and 34/70 so I can avoid the additional hassle of a giant starter.

Thanks for the help!
 
I think you'll be happy with 34/70, just make sure you re-hydrate and pitch enough.

I use it all the time, but usually harvest, rinse and make starters from that since I only brew once a month or so. It seems fine a few generations out.
 
It's more work, but it might be worth it to you to look into krausening.

On brew day, you save 10% of your wort and 10% of your yeast and when fermentation is winding down in the main batch, pitch the yeast in your 10% krausen batch and let it get going and then add it to the main batch a day or so later.

The theory is that the small batch that is aggressively fermenting will help scrub the whole batch of by products like diacetyl. I've done it twice with an 8.5% maibock and it is my favorite of my brews.

I got the idea from a Basic Brewing Radio podcast. The host claims that every lager he tastes has a distinct "homebrew" taste and krausening eliminates that. I wouldn't know because I haven't tried to do a lager without krausening. All I know is that it works great for me and I doubt I'll risk making a lager without doing it.

Here's a link describing the process better:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/krausen-1/

Hope my two cents helps in some way :)
 
I realize there are multiple ways to brew exceptional lagers and I have done my part in trying multiple methods.

By far my best results come from just setting the temp and let it alone. I made a Grolsch clone set temp at 50F, let alone for two weeks...no raising temps...nothing. At the end of two weeks I crashed at 35F, kegged after 2 days, then lagered for 3 months at 35F.

Yes, this is a 14 week beer....and it shows the time investment I made in it. Patience is the key. While I know others will say this isn't right, I can do this lager in half the time, I can also be sure there will be those who agree that in certain cases, time simply cant be cut short.
 
I’ve always used W-34/70 for lagers and just tried out WLP940.
I actually brewed 2 lagers on the same day; pitched 34/70 into one and 940 into the other.

50*F for 1 week.
34/70 had hit FG.
940 was 4 points away from FG.

I turned off all temp control in the keezer.
I monitor air temp in keezer as well as thermowell.
It took 4 days in FL for the 5 gallon batch to reach 68*F.

At the end of week 2 (yesterday), 940 was still building pressure in the keg. Keeps pushing from 15psi a couple pounds each day.
34/70 has been steady pressure ever since the temps stabilized.

Both samples at week 1 tasted great.

I’ve only tasted apple once; in my first lager where I simply pitched two dry packs of 34/70.
Ever since, I make starters.
34/70, I rehydrate, then overbuild a starter to save some as liquid yeast for next brew.
7 generations this way is still good.
 
The beer I posted about has been sitting in the closet for about 40 days. It is MUCH better today, totally drinkable, though I sure wouldn't enter it into a contest. The green apple is completely absent and the diacetyl is, to my palate, barely perceptible and not objectionable.

With the fermentation flaws reduced, I can get a much better idea of the recipe mistakes I made, too. This brew is tasty but landed a country mile away from what I was trying to do. I guess the style it is closest to is "Mexican Hot Mess Vienna Lager." Good experience though. Now I have a much better idea of what a couple of these ingredients do in these amounts, which I find is the most hard-won experience in the whole hobby.

My next brew will be a simple Czech pilsner, using JZ's recipe.

If any lager fans are still tuned in, how many packs of 34/70 would you use for OG 1.057/14 P, assuming good rehydration technique? I have done a lot of reading and depending on who you listen to, the answer is anywhere from 1 to 6! I also have 1.7 L jars of 1.036 wort on hand so making starters with them is very convenient.
 
Horseflesh said:
If any lager fans are still tuned in, how many packs of 34/70 would you use for OG 1.057/14 P, assuming good rehydration technique? I have done a lot of reading and depending on who you listen to, the answer is anywhere from 1 to 6! I also have 1.7 L jars of 1.036 wort on hand so making starters with them is very convenient.
Click to expand...

4 packs per 5 gallons.

I used to subscribe to rehydrating but after several wildly successful attempts just free balling it, I’m not so sure it really matters much.
 
Lagers are kinda funny in that I've had some go well and are drinkable in a month or so and I've had some that took almost a year and they were great.

As far as yeast goes I typically pitch 2 packs for a 1.040-1.050 beer, I haven't made anything over 1.050 in a lager but I would think 3 or more packs is overkill.
 
Maybe this is a good benchmark.... I pitch tons of yeast and i've never had a beer take longer than a few weeks to become extremely drinkable, even lagers. Hell the fermenting beer doesn't have any off flavors other than just being yeasty. I don't get *any* green apple or *any* butter. Lagers there's always a little sulfur in the nose but that's typical for the yeast and always fades after about a week of lagering.

A few months ago i had a 1.068 IPA go grain to glass in about a week and was fantastic. Last Friday I made a 1.058 IPA and it was fully naturally carbonated and sent to chill on Wednesday. Going to put it on tap tomorrow. Both got 2 packs of US-05 per 5 gallons.

No doubt it'll ferment with even 1 pack but you'll up your game by using 2 packs for ales, and double that for lagers.
 
Horseflesh said:
The beer I posted about has been sitting in the closet for about 40 days. It is MUCH better today, totally drinkable, though I sure wouldn't enter it into a contest. The green apple is completely absent and the diacetyl is, to my palate, barely perceptible and not objectionable.

With the fermentation flaws reduced, I can get a much better idea of the recipe mistakes I made, too. This brew is tasty but landed a country mile away from what I was trying to do. I guess the style it is closest to is "Mexican Hot Mess Vienna Lager." Good experience though. Now I have a much better idea of what a couple of these ingredients do in these amounts, which I find is the most hard-won experience in the whole hobby.

My next brew will be a simple Czech pilsner, using JZ's recipe.

If any lager fans are still tuned in, how many packs of 34/70 would you use for OG 1.057/14 P, assuming good rehydration technique? I have done a lot of reading and depending on who you listen to, the answer is anywhere from 1 to 6! I also have 1.7 L jars of 1.036 wort on hand so making starters with them is very convenient.
Click to expand...

I recently used 3 pack rehydrated of 34/70 for a 1.078 Maibock and it attenuated great without any off flavors, but I do diacetyl rests with my lagers soooo!?
 
I use this calculator with good results:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

It says that for 5 gallons of 1.057 wort, lager pitch rate should be 399 billion cells.
Fermentis guarantees 69 billion cells per pack.

That’s 6 packs.
That’s 1 pack and a 2.2L starter.
That’s 2 packs and a 1.7L starter.
 
How quickly do you want the yeast to start showing signs of fermentation and how well can your aerate the wort before pitching? Well aerated wort will grow a single packet into the amount needed but it will have a longer lag time which could allow bacteria a start and gain you some interesting flavor. It isn't real likely but it could happen.
 
I have pure O2 and one of those special wands, so I can oxygenate effectively. (I always do, need it or not, it can't hurt.)

I am happy to do a 1-step starter, multiple steps is where it stops being fun. I think @FunkedOut has the right idea, though I may need 3 packs, depends on which numbers you want to believe. Also, my total wort volume will be more like 5.75 gal meaning I would need 458B cells.

The Fermentis guarantee of 69B may be conservative according to this:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=20977.0

If I use the lowest cells per gram in the results table it's more like 92B per 11.5 g pack, say 180B for 2 packs. A 1.7 liter starter would fall short at 420B cells. So, it is right on the border, I could have enough if the pack is more dense than expected, or fall short. So it looks like I should do a 3-pack 1.7 L starter just to be sure. That sure isn't saving any money, all yeast is expensive at my shop, but at least I can harvest and re-use.
 
go ahead and get the 3 packs now.
use the calculator to build yourself an extra 100 billion cells to cold crash, decant and store.

next brew, skip the part where you buy 3 packs.
 
For lagers its really really useful to repitch slurry from the last batch. 4 packs of 34/70 costs me the same as 15kg/33lb of pilsner base malt, screw that.
Aside from cost, repitched slurry can be super healthy if you brew often, definitely better than a smackpack that's been at the HBS for however long.
 
don't make a starter from dry yeast. takes away the benefits of using dry yeast and depletes the built in reserves. buy another pack.
 
Sadu said:
Aside from cost, repitched slurry can be super healthy if you brew often, definitely better than a smackpack that's been at the HBS for however long.
Click to expand...

I've been reusing slurry for about the last 9 months and it's worked out great so far. I take no special care other than scooping the yeast cake into a sanitized container.
 
Horseflesh said:
Will do.

On the subject of lagers... while I would like to master the Mexican yeast just 'cuz I like the idea of a Mexican-inspired lager, what dry yeast would you guys recommend? I have read that W-34/70 is nice and reliable.
Click to expand...

W-34/70 is likely the same thing as WLP830, which us reported to be from Weihenstephan and according to white labs its "one of the most widely used lager strains in the world," so its a pretty safe bet. I use 830 and have been cultivating it on my own for a couple years now. Seems stable over time too.
 
schematix said:
Maybe this is a good benchmark.... I pitch tons of yeast and i've never had a beer take longer than a few weeks to become extremely drinkable, even lagers. Hell the fermenting beer doesn't have any off flavors other than just being yeasty. I don't get *any* green apple or *any* butter.
Click to expand...

Right now I am drinking Jamil's Czech pilsner that I brewed 25 days ago, with the advice from this thread and other places. It is still not totally clear, but it tastes very good. As you have observed I didn't get any off-flavors other than yeast when I tasted samples along the way.

I used 34/70 for 2 weeks at 50F, ramped to room temp over a few days, stayed there for a few more days, then a few more days of cold crashing with gelatin and into the keg.

Since I couldn't taste any diacetyl maybe I didn't need the warm d-rest step, but I guess it doesn't hurt.

This is very encouraging! I think it's the season of lagers for me.
 

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