First Lager and Generally Clueless

[OldStyler]

Hey guys,

As the title says, I'm about to take a crack at my first lager and have only a loose understanding of what I am doing and I was hoping someone on here could make fun of my ideas enough to point me in a slightly better direction.

I recently bought a Brew Jacket Immersion Cooler (link in case you've never heard of this contraption: http://www.brewjacket.com/) and per their claims, this thing can keep the temperature of the fermenter up to 35 degrees below ambient temp, and within .5 degrees of the target temperature - so pretty decent set up for lagering.

I also just bought an all grain kit (to lazy to set up my own recipe) from HomeBrewSupply.com for a Maibock (https://www.homebrewsupply.com/maibock-all-grain-recipe-kit.html) with a vial of WLP833 to drive the whole shebang. The expected OG of 1.068 obviously calls for building a decent sized starter, which I am not too well versed on either. I took a look at the calculator at brewer's friend and see that I will need a 2-stage starter to get my pitch rate up to snuff. While I'm aiming for a 5 gallon batch, I would use a 1.5L at 1.030, let it go a couple days, cool and decant it into a 3L starter at 1.030 - calc says that should get me to 476B cells.

The game plan for the mash would be 90 minutes at ~155-156 degrees, followed by a 90 minute boil - in this case I would be aiming to end up with about 4G at the end of the boil as my kitchen stove can't really get a full 6-6.5G boiling. I would then top off the amount of boiled wort with another gallon or so of pre-boiled water that had been cooled to about 40 degrees in a sanitized container. My immersion chiller can get the wort down to about 65 degrees, which I would then have the Brew Jacket cool the wort down to 45-46 before pitching and then letting the temp rise to 50 to ferment for a few days. I don't know exactly what a diacetyl rest should look like, but after 4-5 days when the gravity was getting close to the anticipated FG, I would crank the fermenter to the mid-60's over the course of 2 days before letting it rest for 3-4 more. Rack that into a second bucket to get the beer off the yeast cake and let that hang out at 40 for about a month.

Is there anything that I might be missing here? For the starter I don't have a stir plate, so I would just use the 'shaking method'. I think my sanitation practices are pretty solid as I haven't infected any batches just yet.

Thanks in advance for any advice, I appreciate all the insight.

 

[Kent88]

Seems like you've got it figured out. Not sure why you're deviating from the mash and boil times, though. A longer mash might make it a little more fermentable and the final product a little drier. Also, a 1.068 OG doesn't sound to dense, but I suppose you ran the numbers to get the yeast count, I'm just a little surprised.

Just make sure you're following the instructions for boil additions. You don't want to go adding your hops to early and mess with the bitterness.

As for making a starter, I believe you're looking at making some unhopped wort that should be somewhere around 1.030 to 1.040, cooling it down to around room temp (maybe a little warmer), adding the yeast to that and trying to keep oxygen in solution by shaking it up. I've added about 5 tablespoons of DME to 2.25cups water (or whatever volume will get you to around that after boiling) and a pinch of yeast nutrient, boil 15 minutes and chill it. I used to pour it into a growler to culture up the yeast before I got a flask.

 

[OldStyler]

Thanks Kent, I was thinking of going 90 min on both given that for some reason, I remember reading or hearing somewhere that 90 min mashes were used on grain bills like this one to achieve full conversion (whatever that exactly means, but if you don't know any better 'full conversion' sounds like a good thing right?) But I can certainly see that I might want this beer to finish a little sweeter, so perhaps I should revert to 60 min on both - I am of course happy to cut an hour of the brew time. If 60 min mash and 60 min boil would get me to where I wanted to go (have a decent Maibock) then I'll go that way.

Thanks again

 

[Cavpilot2000]

It looks pretty good. I think the mash temp is a hair high (is that what the recipe recommends?), but I often mash for 90 minutes for my German lagers - it just seems to help get a crisper character, but maybe that's just me.

A note on the Brewjacket Immersion:
I have one and use it a lot. It's a great piece of equipment.
HOWEVER, if you rely on it to get your wort down to pitching temps, it could be a long wait. I put it in my wort at 80F recently, trying to cool it to 52 and it took like 3 days to get there. After a day, it was only low 70's and I was worried about contamination, so I went ahead and pitched the yeast anyway (Saflager 34/70) way above recommended temps.
The beer turned out very tasty (a german Pils modeled after Bitburger) but had a persistent apple cider flavor (not exactly acetaldehyde, but rather it tasted like it was fermented with about a gallon of fresh cider). I don't know for certain, but I highly suspect that flavor to have come from the day or two the yeast spent replicating in the higher temps.

So in a nutshell, get your wort as cool as you can, because if there is a big delta to your pitching temp, the BJI can take a long time to get there (plan about 10 degrees a day at best).

I just got a Brewjacket Immersion compatible corny keg lid for fermenting in a keg. Great addition to my stable.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Your on point. As stated above I'd lower the mash temp to 152-154 range. Don't rush the primary it's going to take longer than an ale due to colder temps. When your a few points away from your final gravity raise the temp to 154-158 for a 3 day D rest. Then you can rack to secondary for the lager phase. Good luck!

 

[wyowolf]

Your on point. As stated above I'd lower the mash temp to 152-154 range. Don't rush the primary it's going to take longer than an ale due to colder temps. When your a few points away from your final gravity raise the temp to 154-158 for a 3 day D rest. Then you can rack to secondary for the lager phase. Good luck!

hmmmm i maybe wouldnt raise it quite so high during fermentation....

 

[Dcpcooks]

hmmmm i maybe wouldnt raise it quite so high during fermentation....

He's fermenting at 50 so 154-158 for the d rest should be fine in my experience. It's really yeast strain specific though. What temps are you running at?

 

[Paulaner]

I suggest you taste it prior to doing a diacetyl rest, if no off flavors are tasted don't waste your time with it, I rarely need to do a rest at a higher temp. But, this is just my opinion and as you can see everyone has one, irregaurdlessly:smack: you are gonna have beer at the end. Well, hopefully good beer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

He's fermenting at 50 so 154-158 for the d rest should be fine in my experience. It's really yeast strain specific though. What temps are you running at?

Look closely at the posts. 54-58 would be a reasonable temp (and actually fairly low for a D-rest). 154-158 would not.

 

[ShareBrewing]

154F for a diacetyl rest is about 80 degrees too high for any yeast strain... this isn't mashing.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

OP: Your D-rest plan is a sound one, as it usually involves raising the temp to the mid 60's for a few days when your fermentation is almost complete (you have just a few points left until anticipated FG). There are variations out there, but that's the classic profile. It may not even be necessary, if you sample the beer and you don't taste diacetyl (buttery or butterscotch flavor) but I always do one as a matter of course and consistent process. You keep it there until fermentation is complete and/or you have no more diacetyl flavor (usually 2-4 days, but longer if D flavor is persistent).

My question is this: why would you lager at 40F? If you have the means, you should really aim for as close to freezing as you can get (30-32F is great if you can achieve it - no, your beer won't freeze at 30F due to the alcohol, but 32 is close enough). The only downside is if you are lagering in your serving fridge, all of your beer will be at the same temp, which is really a tad too cold for ideal serving temps (and no, your BrewJacket won't get you that low and will struggle to even get below 45, depending on your ambient temp).
The colder you can lager, the better your beer will clear and the less haze you will experience.
But if you

 

[wyowolf]

I ferment at low 50s then raise it to 70ish or whatever room temp is towards end of ferment... 154 would be WAY too high.

 

[jjw5015]

He's fermenting at 50 so 154-158 for the d rest should be fine in my experience. It's really yeast strain specific though. What temps are you running at?

FYI you're combining/confusing mashing and fermentation here.

 

[OldStyler]

Cavpilot - that is good to know! I was planning on using the BJIC to get the wort down to pitching temp, but I would be nervous the entire time about contamination. Would it maybe make more sense to freeze the 1 gallon of additional water, and then rack the wort (likely about 60-65 degrees after chilling) on to the ice? I imagine over a couple hours that would get the wort down closer to 50-55 and would result in a pretty safe pitching temp?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Cavpilot - that is good to know! I was planning on using the BJIC to get the wort down to pitching temp, but I would be nervous the entire time about contamination. Would it maybe make more sense to freeze the 1 gallon of additional water, and then rack the wort (likely about 60-65 degrees after chilling) on to the ice? I imagine over a couple hours that would get the wort down closer to 50-55 and would result in a pretty safe pitching temp?

Thanks again for the help!

I don't see why that wouldn't work as long as you boiled the additional gallon and kept it in a sanitized container. The problem would be what kind of container would you put it in that would allow you to get it back out while frozen (something like a milk jug would be great except that you can't empty it if you freeze the water). Maybe just chill that extra gallon to refrigerator temps (35-40F) That would bring you down a couple of degrees (5-10, depending on wort temp when you added it).
Do you have a fridge big enough to just put your fermenter in until it cools to pitching temp, then add the BJI?

 

[Dcpcooks]

154F for a diacetyl rest is about 80 degrees too high for any yeast strain... this isn't mashing.

Doh. Yes typo. 54 -58. Yikes

 

[jjw5015]

I don't see why that wouldn't work as long as you boiled the additional gallon and kept it in a sanitized container. The problem would be what kind of container would you put it in that would allow you to get it back out while frozen (something like a milk jug would be great except that you can't empty it if you freeze the water). Maybe just chill that extra gallon to refrigerator temps (35-40F) That would bring you down a couple of degrees (5-10, depending on wort temp when you added it).
Do you have a fridge big enough to just put your fermenter in until it cools to pitching temp, then add the BJI?

I've seen a small tupperware/rubbermaid container used in this manner.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I've seen a small tupperware/rubbermaid container used in this manner.

Yeah, that would work nicely.
OP: I think that's a good idea if you don't have an appropriate fridge, knowing that you expect your post-boil volume to only be around 4 gallons.

Go forth and brew, my friend!

 

[OldStyler]

Yes, I have a number of 2G brewing buckets that are slightly tapered at the bottom and fit in my freezer, so I think I could make a good chunk of ice and be able to plunk it out into the fermenting bucket with just a bit of work. I wish I had a fridge capable of holding this thing - maybe if the lady is gone for a little bit I could borrow some space in the food fridge without getting so many crazy looks...

But it all sounds like it should work... or something to chalk up to a "learning experience".

If anything goes terribly wonky I'll be sure to share my errors and any ensuing hilarity!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Yes, I have a number of 2G brewing buckets that are slightly tapered at the bottom and fit in my freezer, so I think I could make a good chunk of ice and be able to plunk it out into the fermenting bucket with just a bit of work. I wish I had a fridge capable of holding this thing - maybe if the lady is gone for a little bit I could borrow some space in the food fridge without getting so many crazy looks...

But it all sounds like it should work... or something to chalk up to a "learning experience".

If anything goes terribly wonky I'll be sure to share my errors and any ensuing hilarity!

Chances are you WILL screw something up, but chances also are that you won't screw it up badly enough that it'll severely affect the beer. And if you like lagers, once you start them, you'll be making them a lot. They constitute at least 50% of my brews these days. They are so satisfying from an "I made that" perspective. In fact, most of the ales I make are just interim solutions because I'm waiting on my lagers to ... lager.

Agai, you whole plan looks sound with maybe the exception of the unusually high mash temp. Bring it down to 152-154 and you should be more in the range. A Maibock should not be heavy-bodied like a normal Bock or Doppelbock. Think more like an Imperial Helles.
And let us know how it goes (both good and bad).

 

[OldStyler]

Sounds good, I'll pull that mash temp down a bit and give it a go. I generally prefer dryer beers anyway!

 

[OldStyler]

And on a similar topic - Cav, do you have the jacket with the immersion chiller? And is yours the model that can warm beers as well? Happy to hear that you like it though, I'm looking forward to being in a lot more control of the fermenting temp, even if it's just low 60s for ales.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

And on a similar topic - Cav, do you have the jacket with the immersion chiller? And is yours the model that can warm beers as well? Happy to hear that you like it though, I'm looking forward to being in a lot more control of the fermenting temp, even if it's just low 60s for ales.

Yes, I have the pro (coll or warm) version.
I haven't had to use the warming function yet because my basement, where I do my fermenting, is heated in the winter so it stays 68-70. In the summer it's actually cooler and then I will probably need the warming effect for ales. So far I've only ised it for lagers. It holds temp great as long as you cinch down the insulating bag well.