First brewing session... many mistakes and many questions!

[GregoireM]

Hello all,

Today I brewed for the first time, vaguely following a recipe I found here (Peroni Clone)

I started with 5L of water, and 630g of pale malt and 210 g of maize flakes.

I mashed for 2h30 at 65C. I used my inkbird connected to an electric stove to regulate that emperature, but the heat inertia and time to heat up of the stove means it kept going from 62C to 70C. Is that a massive problem? Do I have to improve that next time, or is staying between those temperature OK, doesit have an impact on finished product? Anyway, I believe this is not my biggest problem.

After mashing, I measured the gravity, and it gave me 1.021... quite far off from the 1.055 I aim for. Anyway, I just boiled it with hops and all, and let the trial jar on the side with the hydrometer. It raised to 1.035. I read later that it does raise when it cools, but calculator tell me it shouldn't raise that much. How to measure gravity when the liquid is hot? Do you just wait 5 minutes every time?

At the end of the boil, I was left with around 2.5L or maybe 3L, but less than I expected. I cooled it and managed to do it quite fast, then measured the gravity. It was 1.065 (I aimed for 1.055). I thought I needed to dilute it, but boiling water to sterilise it to do it would mean I'd raise the temperature... which I was trying to cool as quickly as possible. I just left it like that. How do you do to adjust gravity?

While I'm talking about water, here comes my biggest mistake. I had some gypsum to lower ph, but I thought it had to be done after wort boiling and cooling. So I measured the ph as the wort was cooling down to pitching temperature, and it was above the 6.2 that my strips can measure, so I added gypsum. And I added more gypsum, and more, and more, and more... until I probably added about 30g and nothing happened. I realised, but too late, that my water filter brings the pH to 9.5, and that gypsum should be added way earlier. I managed to let most of it in the pot while transfering to the demi john, but I'm not sure if that much gypsum is even drinkable! I will definitely start with lower pH water next time, but when and how much gypsum should I add if it's still above 6?

I finally had about 2.5L in my demijohn, and I sprinkled yeast on it (Mangrove Jack M84) when the temperature was 20C and I put it in my fridge with inkbird to regulate at 12C. I hope I got this part right at least? Or is a half demi john not full enough?

I don't think it could've gone much worse, I will see if what comes out is drinkable, but I might do another batch before this one is finished, as I'm sure I could correct those mistakes.

Thanks for your advice!

 

[rburrelli]

Yep. A lot of things went wrong and were done wrong. Experience will help you correct these things. The gypsum addition is what concerns me the most. Yes. It drops pH but it also accentuates hopinesss. PH of mash is what you are most concerned about. 2.5L with that much gypsum should be interesting.

 

[hotbeer]

Don't over complicate your first dozen or so brews. Keep it simple with simple recipes.

You mash temps are well in the ball park. I don't take a gravity reading after my mash. It just is what it is. Also, what temp was it you used the hydrometer? Did you correct for temp?

As to your boil resulting in less volume than expected. I keep a little water that's already boiled to add back when I've boiled off too much. I have marks on my kettle so I know. You can also just make marks on a spoon handle or something to tell you what your liquid volume is.

Water ph. I don't worry about that yet. I do use bottled RO water or highly filtered water that has had the minerals put back in it. Usually they keep a tight control of that because they are selling the taste they think their customers want. At least the better ones do.

In the KISS world I am in right now, I stay away from lagers. Even though I very much like to drink them. I'd rather do ales and stuff that can ferment at about 20°C (68°F)

And back to all your hydrometer readings... if you are brewing less than 3 litres, even less than 10 litres, then taking all those readings is using all your precious liquid. Or are you pouring it back? Or are you using a refractometer.... which to me is dodgy for stating a real gravity reading.

 

[kirbcheck]

Congrats on your first brew day! Honestly, I don't know if this batch will be drinkable or not, but it has at least created a teachable moment.

First, mash temp is very important. Lower temps convert starches to more fermentable sugars (so it tends to be drier with a higher abv). Higher temps will produce less fermentable sugars so the finished product will be sweeter (lower abv).

I usually don't get too concerned with gravity as long as I'm within 5 points. But you have the right idea. More water to lower the gravity. Boil longer to raise the gravity (or add dme).

My suggestion is this. Don't worry about ph at first. Get the process down. Learn how to use your system first, then tweak things like ph.

 

[jdauria]

Congrats on your first brew, only way to learn is to make mistakes along the way. 2.5 hour mash is very long, did that include the time needed to heat the water? You only need to mash for an hour. So you say after mash you had 1.021 but were aiming for 1.055 and then after boil you had 1.065 and were aiming for 1.055....you can't have 1.055 before the boil and after the boil and the boil evaporates water leaving sugar behind, so those numbers go up. So assuming a 60 min boil, your target after mash would have been more like 1.045 and then target after boil would be 1.055. But obviously something in your numbers is wrong because no way you can go from 1.021 to 1.065 in an hour. Assuming you took a reading at mash temps when you got 1.021, then corrected for temp you would have been really more like 1.037 which would be a lot closer to what your gravity should have been before the boil.

30g of gypsum for a 2.5L batch is really way too much. Your pH may be so low it may wind up tasting tart and way to minerally. For something like a Peroni clone, I would use something like 2-3 grams in a 20L batch.

Did you also add all the hops at once? Nothing wrong with that, but usually recipes have different hop additions based on time remaining in boil, for example x amount at start of boil (60 min), x amount with 30 mins left, x amount with 10 minutes left, and sometimes x amount after the boil.

 

[GregoireM]

Hello and thanks for those quick replies. As you all say, it was at least a trial and a teachable moment, and I'll see if it's drinkable at the end.

Also, what temp was it you used the hydrometer? Did you correct for temp?

So when I said I read 1.021 and it raised to 1.035, the 1.021 reading was just above 70C, and the 1.035 was after sitting in there for 10 minutes, so probably 30-40C. My hydrometer is calibrated for 20C, so now that I know that temperature maters for hyfrometer readings, I believe what happened was that: 1.021 around 70C, 1.035 around 35C, which correspond to 1.039 at 20C or something like that. I will check the temperature next time.

2.5 hour mash is very long, did that include the time needed to heat the water? You only need to mash for an hour. So you say after mash you had 1.021 but were aiming for 1.055 and then after boil you had 1.065 and were aiming for 1.055....you can't have 1.055 before the boil and after the boil and the boil evaporates water leaving sugar behind, so those numbers go up. So assuming a 60 min boil, your target after mash would have been more like 1.045 and then target after boil would be 1.055. But obviously something in your numbers is wrong because no way you can go from 1.021 to 1.065 in an hour. Assuming you took a reading at mash temps when you got 1.021, then corrected for temp you would have been really more like 1.037 which would be a lot closer to what your gravity should have been before the boil.

See above for hydrometer values, you are right, I just learned on the spot that temperature matters and had my numbers a bit wrong I had no aim for after mash, but a final aim of 1.055. I just measured after mash to be able to understand what's wrong in case it went wrong.

As for the mash time, I did as the recipe said... maybe I chose a non standard recipe to start with (and I also changed grits to corn flakes). Maybe non the wisest first brew, but that's what I did. Do you think I should mash less long? Here is a bit more detail:

-I put 5 liters to warm to 70C
-Dipped 630g bohemian pilsner malt and 210g of corn flakes in a bag in it for 2h30. That oscillated between 62 and 70C.
-Removed the bag, drained it (I weighted 1kg after draining), and raised temperature.
-As soon as it boiled, I put whole Magnum hops in a bag (they stayed for 60 minutes), quantity for 20 IBU
after 45 minutes I bag some Saaz hops in a bag (they stayed for 15minutes) quantity for 2 IBU
-After 60minutes, I removed those 2 hop bags, and added some Saaz ( a bit more than before, as the guy on th erecipe thread said he would put a bit more) at flame out and they stayed in there as it was cooling down.
-I cooled down to 20 degrees in about 20 minutes. During those 20min, this is when I did my mistakes with the gypsum. It was too late, and probably well out of the 4.6-6.2 range my strips could measure. But I had 5 minutes to think about it and probably did the wrong thing. I eventually quit and syphoned to a demijohn, most of the gypsum didn't make it as it was precipitated at the bottom.
-I sprinkled the yeast (10g M84) on the surface, inside the dmijohn and but a bubble airlock.
-Put it in a fridge where it lowered to 12C in about 2 hours and stayed around 12C since. It is in a water bath control with inkbird, I think that's the only thing I have managed right ahah



So here is what I think I should improve for next batch, and maybe you could help me think it through before I do it.

I aimed for 4.5 L, but got only 2.5. My gravity was 1.065, at probably around 30C, let's called it 1.070 corrected for temperature. Supposing I had those 2.5L at 1.070, that is about 460g of sugar altogether. If I get the same amount of sugar, but with 4.5L, I will be around 100g/L, or gravity of 1.038. So, do I need to put more malt/corn, or is it going to extract more sugar because I will have more water (or a mix of both)? I'm not sure how to predict that and adapt. Could I put more malt and corn flakes and stop mashing when I reach the right amount of sugars (whatever gravity*volume that gives me the right amount of sugar)?

Assuming I get my 150g/L (OG of 1.055) x 4.5L = 675g of sugars in whatever amount of liquid, I will just reserve some filtered boiled and cooled down water to reach 4.5L, and I should have the right OG. I know it's not going to happen exactlyas planned, but I'd like to try to get as close as possible.

I will just forget about ph for now, with the risk of having too much astringent compound, but I'll think about taht in a few batches.

As for the volume of water. I started with 5L, I removed 1kg with the bag. The bag started at 840g, I extracted 460g of sugar, so in this bag I removed there was 380g of things remaining from the malt, and 620ml of water.

At the end I had 2.5L, so that means I evaporated roughly 2 liters and lost half a litter in the grain bag.

I will use a slightly bigger stock pot (28cm instead of 24, the surface is 1.4 times bigger), so I expect to evaporate around 3 liters. I'd rather end a bit lower and add some water than having to boil it longer. So I will start with 8 L, and should lose same amount or more to the grain bag, evaporate 2.5 to 3L and finish with between 4 and 4.5L.

Thanks again for your advice and sorry for so many questions again, I'm sure after a few batches it'll be better!

 

[jdauria]

Ok, my brain is a little frazzled right now after a large lunch and being in a middle of a food coma, so trying to convert metric is a blur...but a couple thing:
1. Get good heat resistant gloves and squeeze the bag after removing it to get even more of the sugars out of it.
2. Switching to corn flakes probably soaked up more water in the bag than grits would have.
3. Ah, whole hops...thought you meant "dumped whole hops" as "dumped all the hops". Try using pellet hops instead, especially where you are still trying to dial in your system. Whole hops will also soak up more water than pellet hops will, which is also why your volume is low.
4. 2 and a half hour mash is still way too long. Try stirring the grain every 15 minutes during the mash to help rinse sugars and you don't need to mash for more than an hour.

But sounds like you are heading in the right direction and once you get a few batches under your belt, you will be on your way!

 

[hotbeer]

This isn't a recommendation for their beer making kits. Though I've had very good results with them. Their marketing aim is for the first time and occasional home brewer. Their instructions are pretty much the same for all kits with exception for ingredients used.

Here are the instructions for the first brew I did which I really liked and will be on my list of future brews once I circle back around. Instructions: Jalapeno Saison

Note that they don't give hydrometer readings for anything. That just adds to the complication of your first brews. You really only need to be persnickety about meeting a certain SG when you are trying to exactly duplicate a previous taste or quality of a beer.

I don't think you'll find any lagers on their site either. Maybe they as do I, consider them ever so slightly more challenging for a noob.

They also don't worry about water ph. Just temperature and the basic steps to make beer is all they ask you to do. And doing just the basic steps, with proper sanitation, will get you a good tasting beer and experience making them. Then to replicate beer flavors time and time again, then you can add the complication of all the other extraneous things you are doing for your first beers.

 

[GregoireM]

Hello all,

I thought I would give an update on my brews, as I openned the first few bottles last week and it is promising!

After the few errors in the first batch (OG too high, not enough wort, messing up with minerals to regulate pH) I decided to do another batch, which would ferment in my temperature regulated fridge while the first batch would be carbonating at room temp.

I increase the water amount, but probably a bit too much, and I ended up with an OG too low this time. And a little bit too much liquid, so I had to discard half a liter of potential good beer!

First batch: 5L water, 630g pale malt, 210g corn flakes, 2.5L in the fermenter, 2L bottled
2h30 at 65C, 1hour boil with magnum for 60 minute, saaz for 15 min and saaz at boil off
M84 yeast, 18 days at 12deg, 18 days carbonation at room temp, 4 weeks lagerring at 1.5deg so far

Result: only openned the "bad bottles" so far: first and last syphoned, which might have led to some oxygenation. Happily surprise. If that is what oxydised beer tastes like, I'll have more please!
A bit stronger than intended becaue of high OG (7.5-8 ABV) and therefore not as drinkable as expected. It's one of those beer that taste great, but I wouldn't drink 2 pints.

Second batch: 8L water, 630g pale malt, 210g corn flakes, 4.5L of beer in the fermenter (0.5L dumped), 4L bottled
2h00 at 65C, 1hour boil with magnum for 60 minute, saaz for 15 min and saaz at boil off
M84 yeast, 18 days at 12deg, 18 days carbonation at room temp, 1 weeks lagerring so far.

Result: tasting is still to be done, in a few weeks, but ABV in just below 4, so I hope it'll be more drinkable. I didn't mess up with minerals, and completely disregarded the pH for this batch, I will go back to it when I control everything else, in a few batches!

Will let you know how it goes, thanks for all your advices!