First BIABasket Nut Brown Ale Attempt

[Mike123]

Can anyone review this BIABasket recipe/process for 5 gallons of finished Nut Brown Ale? This will be my first time to use my new rig, which is a propane fired single vessel (Keggle) with a 800 micron grain basket, and a recirculation "pipe" feeding from the top of the Keggle with holes in it extending through the center of my basket. (I modified this request to explain my method). I plan to recirculate at as high a rate as possible. Do any of you with BIAB, especially using a grain basket, experience see any potential issues?

Here is what I plan to do. The grains are from a NB Nut Brown Ale all grain kit.

- I have an 8.5 lb grain bill, and the total amount of water will be 7 gallons based on;
- 5 Gallons to the fermentation vessel
- 0.43 Gallons (0.05 Gal/lb x 8.5 lb) for grain absorption
- 1.46 Gallons boil off (1.17 Gallons x 1.25 Gal/Hr)
- 0.1 Gallons left behind in trub
- Lightly spray the grain to moisten it, and mill to 0.036 inches with my monster mill, and add it to my grain basket
- Lower the grain basket into heated water in the Keggle to stabilize at 154F and hold for 60 minutes for saccharification rest, recirculating with the center fed pipe the entire time
- After 60 minutes, raise the grain basket out of the liquid, raise the water temperature to 170F, and lower the basket for a 10 minute mashout, recirculating as before
- After 10 minutes raise basket, press grain, and dispose of grain and set grain basket aside
- Bring the wort to a boil and start a hop schedule, recirculating during the entire boil;
- 1 oz Fuggle pellets for 60 minutes
- 1 oz Fuggle pellets at flameout
- 5 minutes after flameout, catch all trub possible with a 400 micron basket held under the return port to the keggle (I tried this before with 2 oz pellets for an extract brew with no clogs)
- Chill to 65F with a plate chiller into my Big Mouth Bubbler, aerate wort by splashing with the lid on, and pitch dry Nottingham Ale Yeast
- Allow to ferment - I don't have any questions about the fermentation part, just the above

Thanks much if you have any suggestions, and cheers!

 

[bjhbrew]

This may not be the answer you are looking for but the mash method you employ doesn't really change the recipe other than to scale the grain bill for efficiency you expect to get out of the mash. With that in mind a brewer should be able to take any recipe and scale the grist for the mash efficiency they will get (I use BeerSmith for that). I brew in a bag but I don't squeeze after removing the bag and get a mash efficiency of 75% after a recirculated mash so you may find you get similar. With a brew in basket or bag setup as long as you are getting full conversion than the lautering efficiency (wort left in the grains) will be the biggest impact on mash efficiency. as for recipe, I've done the nut brown Ale recipe that is here on homebrewtalk and really enjoyed it.

 

[Mike123]

This may not be the answer you are looking for but the mash method you employ doesn't really change the recipe other than to scale the grain bill for efficiency you expect to get out of the mash. With that in mind a brewer should be able to take any recipe and scale the grist for the mash efficiency they will get (I use BeerSmith for that). I brew in a bag but I don't squeeze after removing the bag and get a mash efficiency of 75% after a recirculated mash so you may find you get similar. With a brew in basket or bag setup as long as you are getting full conversion than the lautering efficiency (wort left in the grains) will be the biggest impact on mash efficiency. as for recipe, I've done the nut brown Ale recipe that is here on homebrewtalk and really enjoyed it.

Thanks bjh, I modified my post to reflect my tentative plan (process), so if you have anything further to add please do.

 

[bjhbrew]

Ok, I understand now what you’re asking. I work in metric but going through your numbers they all seem reasonable. I agree that conditioning the grain before milling will improve the ability to recirculate. I condition and mill at .036 and can recirculate pretty Fast but I find it helps to start it really slow then ramp up after 5 minutes or so. Your grain absorption seems about right given that your using something to press the grain after removal - this is a number that you’ll just have to track and record over several brews. I get 1 gallon of boiloff over 60 minutes with a 10g pot but you might get more. Bottom line, you’ve clearly put a lot of thought into this inaugural run I think you just need to brew it up, make notes and adjust for the next one if needed. Good luck!

 

[Mike123]

Ok, I understand now what you’re asking. I work in metric but going through your numbers they all seem reasonable. I agree that conditioning the grain before milling will improve the ability to recirculate. I condition and mill at .036 and can recirculate pretty Fast but I find it helps to start it really slow then ramp up after 5 minutes or so. Your grain absorption seems about right given that your using something to press the grain after removal - this is a number that you’ll just have to track and record over several brews. I get 1 gallon of boiloff over 60 minutes with a 10g pot but you might get more. Bottom line, you’ve clearly put a lot of thought into this inaugural run I think you just need to brew it up, make notes and adjust for the next one if needed. Good luck!

Since I am doing a BIAB brew (basket versus bag), I have read that a finer crush of the grain (0.036 inch is my target) is desired for better extraction efficiency. My only concern is that my grain basket is 800 micron, rather larger than most people use, and if the finely crushed grain will not be trapped enough in the basket...……...in other words will it clog my 3/8" ID system hoses and pump. What do you think?

 

[bjhbrew]

Maybe I’m off base but I don’t consider 0.036 to be all that fine of a crush. I’ve heard of biab folks going down to like 0.025 to get pretty much flour. At one point I considered trying a tighter crush but realized that a 60 minute mash plus mash out out was yielding 95%+ conversion efficiency so no reason to go finer. I don’t think you’ll have any issues, especially if you’re conditioning the grain. Regardless of the mesh size in your basket, the fully intact hulls from milling conditioned grain will form a nice filter bed that flow well for recirculating. I recommend starting with a slow flow and then open it up after 5 or so minutes. One thing I’ve found is that there is no point stirring during the mash when recirculating. That was a hard habit to break.

 

[McKnuckle]

- After 60 minutes, raise the grain basket out of the liquid, raise the water temperature to 170F, and lower the basket for a 10 minute mashout, recirculating as before

It isn't necessary or desirable to remove the grain temporarily when you heat from your saccharification rest to mash-out. Just leave the basket in place during this step. The basket goes in once at the very beginning, and is lifted out once at the very end.

 

[Ryansod]

It isn't necessary or desirable to remove the grain temporarily when you heat from your saccharification rest to mash-out. Just leave the basket in place during this step. The basket goes in once at the very beginning, and is lifted out once at the very end.

Also is a mash out required? There is not sparge noted so a mash out shouldn't be necessary.

 

[McKnuckle]

A mash out is never strictly required, but neither is it detrimental. How's that for ambivalent?

 

[Mike123]

Thanks you guys with the excellent practical suggestions, which along with my original motivation (making brew day easier, without compromising beer quality) helps me with my starting process. I'll use the process I described, except for the below changes, then I'll modify my process through trial and error.
- No grain conditioning (wetting with sprayed water) prior to milling
- Aim for 5.5 Gallons into the fermenter versus 5 Gallons to account for trub loss and residual wort in my hoses, etc.
- After the 60 minute saccharification rest I'll leave the basket of grain in the Keggle, raise the temperature to 170F, and pull (and squeeze) after a 20 minute mash out period (this will denature enzymes, preserving my fermentable sugar profile, and thin the wort to drain better and therefore improve efficiency)
- Do an iodine test 30 minutes into the saccharification rest to see where I am, in case I need to make on-the-fly adjustments in mash duration, for example if after 40 minutes it appears I have extracted sufficiently I'll move directly to mash out.

After I do my first brew with my new rig and this process, I'll come back here and provide some results. Who knows, maybe I can help some other brewer with BIABasket. Again, thanks and Cheers!

 

[McKnuckle]

Mike, you seem to be a careful planner and note-taker, which is great. But I'd encourage you to loosen up just a little with some of the mash specs. As long as you can maintain temperature fairly well, and stay within basic duration parameters, your mash will convert and you will successfully get some wort in your kettle.

For example, a 20 minute mash-out is about twice the maximum time needed. Typically, it's 5-10 minutes. It doesn't take much, and you're going straight to boiling right afterwards.

You can certainly use an iodine test for edification and amusement; however, don't end the mash early. Contrary to some opinions you'll read here, longer mashes have benefits beyond simple starch-to-sugar conversion. It's not really a place to cut corners, since we're talking tens of minutes overall. Just go with your planned durations regardless of what the test shows.

If you are anal like me, you will do all you can to recover that residual wort in your hoses, and from the trub, as possible. So try not to over-estimate your starting water volume too generously.

 

[bjhbrew]

Well, ok... I don’t think I’d drop the grain conditioning. It takes a few minutes while you heat the water up and really helps recirculation. Also the mashout, as others said, is not strictly needed to lock in fermentability since you’re not sparging. So don’t feel the need to hold it for 20 minutes or any amount of time. I find just the ramp up to mashout helps to eek out that last little bit of conversion and that’s really the only reason I do it. I figure I need to raise the temp up to a boil either way, might as well leave the grain in then pull it at about 170.

 

[LittleRiver]

...
- After the 60 minute saccharification rest I'll leave the basket of grain in the Keggle, raise the temperature to 170F, and pull (and squeeze) after a 20 minute mash out period (this will denature enzymes, preserving my fermentable sugar profile, and thin the wort to drain better and therefore improve efficiency)...

That will work, but it is not necessary.

A mash out is to lock in a profile so it does not change during a long sparge process. If you're not going to do a long sparge, there's no need to do a mashout.

At the end of the mash, you can remove the grains and immediately fire the heat for the boil. Within a few minutes the enzymes in your wort will be exposed to a temperature that will denature them.

The thing about thinning the wort to drain better is apparently a myth. Research it.

If you have a way of letting gravity drain the grain into the kettle during the entire boil, there's no need to squeeze. At the end of an hour there's not enough liquid left to make make squeezing worth the effort.

 

[Mike123]

OK I'm listening gents. Thanks. I think this first time I'll condition the grain (which I believe is simply spraying it with water before milling right?) and end the saccharification rest by ramping to 170F and pull the grain basket immediately, which I can suspend over the Keggle with my hoist/lift setup for as long as is necessary. It does not take any longer that way, since I'm heating up for a boil anyway.

Time for me to stop planning and start brewing. Probably happen early to mid next week.

 

[LittleRiver]

...
- 1 oz Fuggle pellets for 60 minutes
- 1 oz Fuggle pellets at flameout

I've got several recipes that use a 1oz bittering charge for the full boil, then 1oz after flameout for flavor/aroma. It works well, resulting in an IBU & aroma profile I enjoy.

From the good folks here on HBT I learned to chill to 160-170F before adding the second charge, then letting it sit for 10-15min before continuing to chill. That limits the amount of additional bittering from the second charge, while still extracting flavor & aroma (without it vaporizing, as will happen at higher temps).

 

[Mike123]

I've got several recipes that use a 1oz bittering charge for the full boil, then 1oz after flameout for flavor/aroma. It works well, resulting in an IBU & aroma profile I enjoy.

From the good folks here on HBT I learned to chill to 160-170F before adding the second charge, then letting it sit for 10-15min before continuing to chill. That limits the amount of additional bittering from the second charge, while still extracting flavor & aroma (without it vaporizing, as will happen at higher temps).

Thanks much LittleRiver, I keep hearing people use the term "hop stand", which I'm pretty sure is what you are describing. I think this is a good addition, so I'll try to incorporate it. I have had problems in the past getting the hop aroma I want.....always seems lacking. Cheers!

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Hi Mike123 and congrats on your first BIAB. Well prepared and planned which always helps. I still plan this way.

As mentioned, take great notes on volumes and gravity readings throughout the process. Everyone has different techniques and with time you'll get yours set and tuned for your setup. I brew in a bag so not sure about the basket and mesh size. I don't condition my grain and for Christmas got a mill which has helped tremendously in my efficiencies. I now am able to mill to .025 unlike my LHBS that only set their mill to a credit card gap which killed my efficiencies. I can control flow through the mash so I don't run the pump dry which will expose my heating element.

Make sure to stir your mash for about 5 minutes to remove dough balls and the conversion started and stir every now and then. I didn't see anything in regards to checking mash pH but you may want to look into that down the road. I recently went with not only a finer mill setting but also a 90 mash to make sure my conversion was complete. Maybe over kill but after asking help on efficiency issues from the forum, many suggested trying this. As far as the mashout, this was also discussed and you may want to read more on this. I don't.

Seeing you have a basket not sure about squeezing but I squeeze with a 2 board press and have my grain absorption down to .03 gal./lb. to each his own but it's free wort for the squeezing. I use a hop spider so I eliminate that from going into the fermenter but I let the rest go in which provides food for the yeast. Don't be afraid to let the wort splash when transferring to the fermenter, that also helps with aireation.

Well thought out and plan for mistakes, they always seem to happen. Have fun and will be watching for a brewing day update.

 

[Mike123]

Hi Mike123 and congrats on your first BIAB. Well prepared and planned which always helps. I still plan this way.

As mentioned, take great notes on volumes and gravity readings throughout the process. Everyone has different techniques and with time you'll get yours set and tuned for your setup. I brew in a bag so not sure about the basket and mesh size. I don't condition my grain and for Christmas got a mill which has helped tremendously in my efficiencies. I now am able to mill to .025 unlike my LHBS that only set their mill to a credit card gap which killed my efficiencies. I can control flow through the mash so I don't run the pump dry which will expose my heating element.

Make sure to stir your mash for about 5 minutes to remove dough balls and the conversion started and stir every now and then. I didn't see anything in regards to checking mash pH but you may want to look into that down the road. I recently went with not only a finer mill setting but also a 90 mash to make sure my conversion was complete. Maybe over kill but after asking help on efficiency issues from the forum, many suggested trying this. As far as the mashout, this was also discussed and you may want to read more on this. I don't.

Seeing you have a basket not sure about squeezing but I squeeze with a 2 board press and have my grain absorption down to .03 gal./lb. to each his own but it's free wort for the squeezing. I use a hop spider so I eliminate that from going into the fermenter but I let the rest go in which provides food for the yeast. Don't be afraid to let the wort splash when transferring to the fermenter, that also helps with aireation.

Well thought out and plan for mistakes, they always seem to happen. Have fun and will be watching for a brewing day update.

Why thanks Bigarcherynut, I appreciate your comments. I believe I have considered almost everything by now largely due to the excellent feedback/advice I'm getting from experienced brewers on these forums.....including checking pH and mash stirring. I'll take good notes and get back here with my results in a couple of weeks.....whether it is an epic fail or an astounding success, haha. I'll take a lot of pictures too.....I'm not sure everyone is aware of exactly what I am doing but the pictures will tell the tale. I am waiting on my grain basket to be delivered, and meanwhile I am developing recipes/procedures for future brews. I'm pretty sure there will be a New England IPA and my version of Pete's Wicked Ale down the road.

 

[McKnuckle]

Everything is going to be fine. The nice thing about making wort (the "hot side" of brewing) is that it's quite forgiving. There are very few absolute rules that, if not followed, will doom the outcome. Even mash temperature gives you a wide range, roughly 145-160ºF. If you miss your target but stay in the range, it will make beer.

Mill fine, mill normal; short rests, long rests; step mash, single infusion; mash out; don't mash out; squeeze, don't squeeze; it all works. What I've found important after trying nearly every technique, but now wanting to reliably repeat outcomes, is consistency. That means picking techniques and doing them the same way every time.

If you are a curious person, once you nail the basic analytical and mechanical aspects of brewing, you will vary your technique over time and pick your own preferences. Then you'll come to threads like this and give the OP your $0.02.

Good luck, have fun!

 

[Mike123]

Well all I have left is to brew my first batch, and I decided to make that a version of Pete's Wicked Ale......not my original plan to make a Nut Brown Ale. I'm calling it Mike's Wicked Ale, surprise, surprise! I'll put my neck on the chopping block and show what I plan to do. If any of you guys see anything that just looks wrong, please let me know. Or, just wait until I brew it and see what happens.

I've researched a lot of versions of this beer, and I put it all together plus what I've learned here, to come up with my recipe and plan of attack. I had to make some subs based on availability of grain and yeast and hops.

Mike’s Wicked Ale

10.5 lb grain bill:
8.5 lbs Pale Maris Otter
0.25 lbs English Chocolate Malt
0.25 lbs Briess Caramel 120
0.5 lbs Crystal Malt 60 L
0.25 lbs Belgian Biscuit
0.75 lbs Special Roast

Total Water Required: 8 Gallons
Water into Fermenter 5.5 Gal
Grain absorption (0.05 Gal/lb x 10.5 lb) = 0.525 Gal
Boil Off 1.17 Hr x 1.5 Gal/Hr = 1.76 Gal
Water Left Behind in Trub and hoses 0.25 Gal​

Windsor Ale Dry Beer Yeast

Beforehand:
Condition grain with spray water and mill to 0.033 in into grain basket
Heat 8 Gallons water to 130F

Mash - Duration 90 minutes, recirculate entire time
T-90 Protein Rest - Lower grain into 130F water, stabilize 122F, leave 30 min
T-60 Raise to 153F for Saccharification rest for 50 min
T-30 Check pH, should be 5.3
T-25 Iodine Test - yellow/amber means conversion complete, black = continue
T-10 Add heat to reach 170F
T-0 At 170F raise basket and drain, continue to heat wort to a boil

Boil - Total 70 minute boil, recirculate entire time
T-70 At boil add 2 oz German Northern Brewer Pellets for 50 minutes
T-25 Add Irish Moss
T-10 Catch trub in 400 micron basket at recirculation return port
T-0 Chill to 170F by recirculating through chiller

Hop Stand - Total 20 minutes, recirculate entire time
T-20 At 170F stop chilling and add 1 oz German Northern Brewer for 20 minutes
T-0 Catch trub in 400 micron basket at recirculation return port

Chill to 65F into fermenter, aerate, pitch yeast and ferment at 65F

Dry Hop after 2-3 days (primary fermentation done) add 1 oz Cascade

 

[LittleRiver]

...Boil Off 1.17 Hr x 1.5 Gal/Hr = 1.76 Gal...

If you've measured your boil off rate with the kettle you'll be using, then go with what you measured. If you're estimating, 1.5gal/hr may be high(?).

I use a 15gal kettle that has a wide opening (which will make the rate higher), and I only get 1.2gal/hr. That's with a very gentle boil, which is what you want.

I find that the Priceless BIAB Calculator does a good job of estimating boil off. The depth measurements it provides are also very handy on brew day. ​

...Windsor Ale Dry Beer Yeast... ferment at 65F...

If you have good control of fermentation temps, such as a fermentation chamber or similar that has a temperature controller, and your temp probe is in the wort or attached to the side of the fermenter, then that temp should work out fine for that yeast.

If you don't have that kind of control, put it in a lower temp environment (~60F) for the first few days of fermentation. The yeast generate heat, so the temp in the fermenter will be warmer than the environment. After the krausen falls, move it somewhere that is closer to 70F.

 

[McKnuckle]

Quick feedback:

I agree that 1.5 gal/hr is a high boil-off rate if you're just guessing.

1) Don't do the protein rest. It will be detrimental with this grain bill.
2) Don't recirculate during the boil. It has no purpose, and most pumps aren't happy at that temp.
3) Add the Irish moss closer to flame-out, at ~T-10.

 

[Mike123]

OK LittleRiver and McKnuckle, I modified my recipe/approach based on your comments. Questions - why is the protein rest detrimental for this grain bill, and I have a Steelhead Chugger pump - can't that run at boiling temperatures for a while? Thanks and cheers!

 

[McKnuckle]

The lower protein rest at 122F is optimized for peptidase, which takes medium chain proteins and reduces them. This effectively removes some of the head retention and body producing components from the finished beer. See "The Protein Rest" on this page.

The protein rest is a thing mostly of the past, when malted barley was under-modified, meaning the proteins in the malted grain were not reduced during the malting process and had to be broken down in the mash. This was especially true for German pilsner malt, but not at all for U.K. or American malts, and even less so for nearly all modern malts such as those in your recipe.

In addition, smaller chain proteins can bond with hop polyphenols and cause a permanent haze.

The shorter answer - proteins are already broken down in your malt from long to medium chains. You want medium chain proteins in your beer. If you break them down into smaller form, you've gone too far.

If your pump can handle the temps, go for it. I just don't see any benefit to circulating during the boil. The boil self-circulates (as it were) due to turbulence.

 

[Mike123]

The lower protein rest at 122F is optimized for peptidase, which takes medium chain proteins and reduces them. This effectively removes some of the head retention and body producing components from the finished beer. See "The Protein Rest" on this page.

The protein rest is a thing mostly of the past, when malted barley was under-modified, meaning the proteins in the malted grain were not reduced during the malting process and had to be broken down in the mash. This was especially true for German pilsner malt, but not at all for U.K. or American malts, and even less so for nearly all modern malts such as those in your recipe.

In addition, smaller chain proteins can bond with hop polyphenols and cause a permanent haze.

The shorter answer - proteins are already broken down in your malt from long to medium chains. You want medium chain proteins in your beer. If you break them down into smaller form, you've gone too far.

If your pump can handle the temps, go for it. I just don't see any benefit to circulating during the boil. The boil self-circulates (as it were) due to turbulence.

Thanks McKnuckle for the solid and fact based information. I'll let you know how my first brew with my new single-vessel RIMS rig turns out.

 

[Mike123]

OK here I am with results of my 1st brew day with my new BIABasket rig. I posted this elsewhere on this website but forgot about this thread til just now. It was Mike's Wicked Ale, the recipe for which is above in this thread. I think it was a huge success actually. I conditioned and milled the grain at a 0.035" gap, and it looked good so I did not run it through the mill a second time. The mash was done in 40 minutes according to the iodine test, but I let it go 60 minutes. I had to apply a little propane heat every 20 minutes or so to keep it at 153F. The handful of trub is the material that got past the 800 micron grain basket, which I caught with a 400 micron hop filter. The recirculation worked well.....the injection pipe kept the wort moving throughout the mash. No problems with clogging at any time during the mash, or through the chiller. After 60 minutes I caught the bittering hop trub with the 400 micron filter, chilled the wort to 170F and did a 20 minute hop stand. I recirculated during the hop stand and the temperature dropped to 162F by the time it was done. Then I filtered out the hop trub again and chilled the wort to 65F into my fermentation vessel. I measured the cooled wort OG at 1.058, and came up with an efficiency of 85%. I am very happy with how this turned out.
Addendum of Lessons Learned;
1) I did not account for the water loss during the time heating to mash out temperature, and for the hop stand, which together totaled about 40 minutes. Although not at boiling temperature, there was still some loss, which explains why my volume into the fermenter was 5.25 gallons versus the goal 5.5 gallons. I plan to top off the fermenter to 5.5 gallons. This would also mean my OG value would decrease some, and my efficiency. I think I am probably still better than 80% on efficiency.
2) I added 48F grain to 163F water with a resulting mash temperature of 158F....too hot. Some stirring and fanning got it down to 153F in about 10 minutes. I'm sure this happened because my setup has a lot of mass (heavy duty burner frame and SS keggle), so there is a lot of thermal energy storage. Next time I'll use a lower water temperature, depending on grain temperature of course.
3) I have more sediment than I am happy with, which I am pretty sure is grain flower, in my end product. I believe I caught most of the hop trub with the 400 micron filter. I recirculated during the mash at full pump flow, resulting in little or no filtering of the grain bed. Next time I will slow down the recirculation rate near the end of the mash so that I can catch some more of the grain flour trub before mashing out.

 

[Mike123]

Another update on my 1st brew day with my new BIABasket rig. After 4 days at 68F my Mike's Wicked Ale primary fermentation appears to be done, with a gravity of 1.020. I stopped seeing bubbles/movement in the fermentation lock yesterday. When I opened the fermentation vessel the hop aroma (German Northern Brewer) was wonderful. I roused the yeast with a good stir and dry hopped with an ounce of Cascade pellets. Of course I tasted the sample...…….amazing flavor. I'm super happy with how this is going. I'll leave the Cascade in for 48 hours and then bottle this. Can't wait to try the final product. If anyone is interested I'll check in at that time with how it tastes.

 

[Mike123]

Well - I tried my Mike's Wicked Ale last evening, and it is amazing. I am pretty hard on my brews, so this is unusual. I really like it. The bitterness was just right, prominent but it did not overwhelm the malt and chocolate and roasted notes. The hop aroma and flavor was excellent. As soon as my nose was close I got the hop aroma (German Northern Brewer and Cascade) at just the right level (for me), and with each taste the flavor passed from mild malty and roasted to a nice hop aroma finish. Hard to describe, but it is very much like how I remember Pete's Wicked Ale....maybe a tad milder in the hop department. The only thing I might, maybe, change is to reduce the chocolate notes. I am not sure about that, I will know better after I drink some more of this. I attached a pic of my label. Kind of weird but I went with it. This excellent beer deserves a crown. Those are my eyes, turned upside down to make it more weird. With that I'll close out this thread. Cheers!