First Batch on the New Electric Build - I've Got A Few Questions

[enormous13]

Hey Everyone,

So I finally was able to brew my first batch on the eBIAB system I've been building. For the first brew session, I went with an extract batch, simply because I didn't have what I needed to go all-grain yet (basket, bag, chiller, etc.) and I wanted to start simple in case I ran into any issues. Good thing for the first run, because I definitely had a few issues, that I'm hoping I can get some answers on here.

Here's the system, just so you can get an idea of what I'm working with.

Liquid/Wort leaves the kettle, heads down to the pump, then re-enters through the lid and is distributed back into the kettle.

So, as I neared the boil, it suddenly hit me, "How am I going to return boiling wort from the pump to the kettle during the boil?" My mash return method goes through the lid, but I'm supposed to be boiling with the lid off. A few weeks back I'd been toying around with the idea of adding a whirlpool return to the kettle, initially to aid in the cooling process with an immersion chiller. Now I'm wondering if a whirlpool arm would be a good addition for returning wort during the boil?

Moving onto the next question/issue, I flew up past mash temps better than expected with my 1500 watt element. With the kettle covered through mash temps and up to 200*-ish, I hit 208* no problem. However, when I removed the lid for the boil and just recirculated back into the kettle over the top edge, my element alone couldn't keep temps up. I went from 208* to 199* in a few minutes, while recirculating, before I kicked on my stove top to give me an extra boost and get back up to boil. I was then able to easily get to a vigorous boil, kettle uncovered. Am I not able to keep boiling temps with only the element because of the recirculation and heat loss from the pump/tubing? My plan was to keep the wort moving during boil via recirculating to prevent scorching, keep even temps/inhibit stratification, and hopefully get better utilization of any hop additions.

About 40 minutes into the boil, I happened to notice an alarming amount of condensation on my kitchen ceiling. It was a light brown color and just a tiny bit sticky. I know I'm not going to be able to keep up brewing in the kitchen if that'll be the case, so I may be looking into Brundog's kettle condenser build (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...denser-no-overhead-ventilation-needed.636955/) sooner than I thought.

An observation appeared though, when I put the lid back on the kettle to combat the growing condensation during the last 20 minutes of the boil (which I didn't want to do), but I found that I was able to easily keep boiling temps (212*+) with just my 1500 watt kettle element, no stove assistance, running between 50% and 60% power on my Auber EZboil. So, is there that much of a difference in potential temps with the lid on vs. off?

I bolded the questions in case you'd rather skim, so hopefully I can get some answers here. Overall, I guess the first brew went decently, it was definitely a learning experience with the new kit.

 

[jalc6927]

I think there may be issues of retaining DMS with lid fully on, but this is up for debate

 

[enormous13]

I think there may be issues of retaining DMS with lid fully on, but this is up for debate

Yeah, exactly why I didn't want to put the lid on, but I had to slow down the condensation somehow. Typically, I'd be boiling with the lid off.

 

[jalc6927]

According to the brulosophy folk if you leave the lid on, but off center to let the steam out, you won’t have DMS, but that kind of defeats the purpose

Do you have a range hood in your kitchen where you brew

 

[enormous13]

According to the brulosophy folk if you leave the lid on, but off center to let the steam out, you won’t have DMS, but that kind of defeats the purpose

Do you have a range hood in your kitchen where you brew

We unfortunately do not have an exhaust hood. Thus, I may be looking into adding that Kettle Condenser I referenced in the first post.

I also read that Brulosophy article recently, and while the findings were interesting, I think I'd rather stick with the tried and true method of no lid, until someone finds something conclusive about DMS.

 

[golfindia]

You're not going to be able to maintain a boil with the pump on. I'd ditch the lid and return through the side so you can See what's going on inside the pot. You'll never notice a stuck mash, clogged pump. If your steam from boiling contains sticky substances, that's a pretty interesting phenominon.

 

[enormous13]

You're not going to be able to maintain a boil with the pump on. I'd ditch the lid and return through the side so you can See what's going on inside the pot. You'll never notice a stuck mash, clogged pump. If your steam from boiling contains sticky substances, that's a pretty interesting phenominon.

Like, not be able at all to maintain a boil with a pump going? It's not just that I'm on 1,500 watts and considerably more wattage could do it?

I went through the lid for mash return considering I'll have a basket in place during mash for AG, so going in through the side would create limited space for a basket. Now, for the boil, I was starting to think about adding something like a TC version of the SpinCycle (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/spincycle.htm) that I could slide in a TC port high in the kettle as I approach boil, after removing the basket. It'd return wort directly down to liquid level, and it'd be useful for whirlpooling after flame-out/during chilling with a IC.

The condensation wasn't sticky as like LME, I just perceived it to be just slightly more tacky than typical water. It ended up wiping off the ceiling quite easily, leaving no trace.

 

[golfindia]

Sure, with enough juice, you can recirculate while boiling. Not sure why you need to do that though. I have a 5500w element and as soon as I turn my pump on It kills a boil. Only reason I do it is to sterilize CFC than I shut it off.

 

[BeardedBrews]

I maintain a 10 gallon boil with the lid off, pump running, no insulation, in a 45f garage using a 5500w element at 60%

Most of the heat loss is going to come out of the top, keeping the lid half on will help. Some comes out of the sides so you could try insulating during the boil. Some people will add a second basic 120v element to boost power during the boil, but your range gives the same benefit.

Regarding steam, if you boil off 1 gallon per hour then you're going to have 1 gallon of water on your ceiling. I suspect the sticky brown stuff is smoke residue and dust from years of cooking, I don't know anyone who routinely cleans their ceiling.

Regarding tube routing, I just dangle the hose into the kettle. The whirlpool approach would be good too.

 

[enormous13]

I maintain a 10 gallon boil with the lid off, pump running, no insulation, in a 45f garage using a 5500w element at 60%

Most of the heat loss is going to come out of the top, keeping the lid half on will help. Some comes out of the sides so you could try insulating during the boil. Some people will add a second basic 120v element to boost power during the boil, but your range gives the same benefit.

Regarding steam, if you boil off 1 gallon per hour then you're going to have 1 gallon of water on your ceiling. I suspect the sticky brown stuff is smoke residue and dust from years of cooking, I don't know anyone who routinely cleans their ceiling.

Regarding tube routing, I just dangle the hose into the kettle. The whirlpool approach would be good too.

Bearded! Always with the helpful advice. I figured it wasn't that far fetched to boil through recirculation, I thought I'd heard people do. Welp, I may be headed out to the garage with a 240v induction plate, see if that works any better. Or try out some of that kettle insulation on the current setup. It's actually easier for me to get another 240v circuit instead of another 120v circuit.

You're probably right on the button with that boil residue, first time I've cleaned it here. If I did want to go TC port, could you recommend a quality piece? I could probably grab a TC Blank too for when it's not in use. Bobby's SpinCycle doesn't come in a TC version.

 

[golfindia]

So what's the reason for recirculation while boiling?

 

[enormous13]

So what's the reason for recirculation while boiling?

Further prevent scorching, less stratification of temps, hopefully more hop utilization.

 

[golfindia]

Hmmm, Ok.....

 

[TexasWine]

A few things. One 1500 element should be plenty of power to boil your batch size.

Shoot for 6-8% boil off. Leave the lid mostly on to accomplish this. Boil at least 6% and you should have no issues with DMS.

Only recirculate during the last 10 minutes of the boil to sanitize equipment. Don't recirculate the entire time. In doing so you're putting unnecessary wear and tear on your pump. It's not easy for a pump to move bubble point liquid, but it looks like you have plenty of NPSHa with your set up.

Concerning scorching, get a ulwd element.

 

[enormous13]

A few things. One 1500 element should be plenty of power to boil your batch size.

Shoot for 6-8% boil off. Leave the lid mostly on to accomplish this. Boil at least 6% and you should have no issues with DMS.

Only recirculate during the last 10 minutes of the boil to sanitize equipment. Don't recirculate the entire time. In doing so you're putting unnecessary wear and tear on your pump. It's not easy for a pump to move bubble point liquid, but it looks like you have plenty of NPSHa with your set up.

Concerning scorching, get a ulwd element.

Good to know about that 6-8% range, I hadn't heard that before. And yes, with my MKII pump and setup, there definitely wasn't a lack of suction (NPSH).

Like I was mentioning above, Brundog's Kettle Condenser might be a solution to most of my issues, mainly keeping temps and condensation control. I can't remember if you had replied in that thread or not, but it's definitely interesting with what he came up with. Just waiting to see some results on fermenting batches from him and other users who've jumped on board.

Still need to figure out a "modular" way of returning wort to the kettle via whirlpool tube. I was thinking of adding a TC port up as high as possible, keeping a blank cap on it while mashing with a basket, then as the boil approaches (after removing the basket/grain/etc), removing the cap and sliding a TC whirlpool arm in. My 8 gallon kettle will never see boil volumes over 6 gallons, typically nothing even over 3-4 gallons, so I'm thinking something like this could work, I just have to find something to fit my needs.

 

[BrunDog]

No need to recirculate during boiling. The convective currents in the boil creates enough movement. It’s also difficult to pump liquid at boiling temp - any pressure drop will cause pump cavitation.

 

[enormous13]

No need to recirculate during boiling. The convective currents in the boil creates enough movement. It’s also difficult to pump liquid at boiling temp - any pressure drop will cause pump cavitation.

Ok, good to know. Thank you BrunDog.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Plus one on not recirculating during the boil.

Plus one on a whirlpool port for sanitizing gear and the whirlpool itself.

 

[enormous13]

Anybody know of a whirlpool arm like this (http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Tri-Clover-1.5-Inch-Custom-Whirlpool-Arm.html) that instead of the outer TC connection would have the capability of having a camlock type A on it?

***Or, I may just be better off using this from Bobby, just found it, it's a camlock male to 1.5" tc adapter (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/camtc15.htm). That way I can just order the standard product from NorCal, no custom fees, but the added costs of the adapter, gaskets, clamps.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Jay at norcal would give you a quote to replace the outside TC with a soldered or welded cam A if you asked, likely less than $20 which would beat the price of adapting fittings. Similarly Bobby bends ss tubing and could put together those parts to the length you need.

You could also put a TC hose barb onto the end of the hose instead of the cam lock.

 

[jbedell2]

I've got a very similar system to yours (but 240V), and I use the SpinCycle that you mentioned in your first thread. I also have a port through the lid to mash, just like yours. After the mash, I take the lid off and connect that hose to the cam on the SpinCycle. I usually turn the pump on for 30 seconds or so a couple of times during the boil, then constantly for the last 5 mins or so after putting the immersion chiller in. I run the pump the whole time I'm chilling and it makes a big difference in chill time, and also makes a sweet pile of hops in the center of the kettle that doesn't get into the fermenter.

I don't think you'll regret adding a SpinCycle to that kettle.

 

[enormous13]

I've got a very similar system to yours (but 240V), and I use the SpinCycle that you mentioned in your first thread. I also have a port through the lid to mash, just like yours. After the mash, I take the lid off and connect that hose to the cam on the SpinCycle. I usually turn the pump on for 30 seconds or so a couple of times during the boil, then constantly for the last 5 mins or so after putting the immersion chiller in. I run the pump the whole time I'm chilling and it makes a big difference in chill time, and also makes a sweet pile of hops in the center of the kettle that doesn't get into the fermenter.

I don't think you'll regret adding a SpinCycle to that kettle.

Only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on the spin cycle is that it’s permanently attached, and it’d Interfere with my basket during the mash. I think I’ve got it about figured out how to make a “modular” one. Great to hear though that this idea works like I thought it might!

 

[enormous13]

Jay at norcal would give you a quote to replace the outside TC with a soldered or welded cam A if you asked, likely less than $20 which would beat the price of adapting fittings. Similarly Bobby bends ss tubing and could put together those parts to the length you need.

You could also put a TC hose barb onto the end of the hose instead of the cam lock.

I’ll give them a shout and see what they say!