First attempt at cider...how does my process look?

[brancaster]

Hey all!

This is my first time attempting a hard cider, but I've done a ton of research and I feel mostly confident in my ability.

That being said, I'm the experimenting type and I'd like to test out 3 different batches using 3 different yeasts.

I mostly have questions regarding back-sweetening/carbonating and how much yeast I should use.

Here's my 1- batch process:

1. Add about 80% of 1 gallon of organic, pasteurized, non-preservative containing apple juice to my 1-gallon carboy. Save about 20% for back-sweetening/use as a priming sugar for carbonation at the end of fermentation. (So about 103 ounces for fermentation, and 25 ounces for back-sweetening)

2. Add yeast and yeast nutrient to my 1 gallon carboy. I'm using Wyeast 3068, Safale S-05, and Red Star Pasteur Champagne for individual batches.

3. Ferment for 1 week and then transfer to secondary fermenter.

4. Allow secondary to ferment for 1 week, check my gravity, taste test, and if I'm happy, move on to bottling.

5. This is where I'll add the 25 ounces of unfermented apple juice as a back-sweetener and primer for carbonating.

6. Bottle the cider and wait 2-4 days for carbonation to take hold.

7. Heat pasteurize the bottled cider to stop any remaining fermentation/carbonation.

8. Store, drink, enjoy.

So how does that process sound?

My main questions are:

- Is 25 ounces of apple juice going to be enough to backsweeten and carbonate the 100 ounces or so of cider?

- I know that I can pitch in the whole pack of Safale S-05 and Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast without risking overpitching, but the Wyeast 3068 is a smack pack intended for 5 gallon brews and I'm wondering if I should reduce the amount used. Thoughts?


tl;dr - Brewing three 1-gallon batches of cider. Is 20% (or 25 ounces) of the gallon enough to save for use as a backsweetner and priming sugar for carbonation? If not, should I add a different priming sugar at the end?

Secondary question - Should I only use a portion of the Wyeast 3068 smack pack (intended for 5 gallon brews) or is there no risk of overpitching?

Thanks!

 

[brancaster]

Oh P.S.! Should I worry about blow-off with any of these yeasts? I have standard s-shaped airlocks.

Do I need to worry about getting blow-off tubes?

 

[photobru]

Almost missed the part where you said you were pasteurizing and was about to go on about how you had a recipe for bottle bombs. I would check your gravity anyway though to make sure you hit your desired FG before bottling, 2 weeks doesn't seem like very long for cider, though I've only used wine yeast for my ciders.

As for the priming, not sure, I haven't back sweetened or primed with juice, but I think a search should turn up an answer.

I think you'll be ok with one smack pack split between 3 gallons, I regularly use one package of dry yeast for 2 & 2.5 gallon brews of cider and beer, which is also intended for 5 gallons and haven't noticed any problems yet.

And if you're setting aside 20%, you'll only have a little more than 3/4 gallon of juice per jug, which will be plenty of headspace.

 

[brancaster]

Almost missed the part where you said you were pasteurizing and was about to go on about how you had a recipe for bottle bombs. I would check your gravity anyway though to make sure you hit your desired FG before bottling, 2 weeks doesn't seem like very long for cider, though I've only used wine yeast for my ciders.

As for the priming, not sure, I haven't back sweetened or primed with juice, but I think a search should turn up an answer.

I think you'll be ok with one smack pack split between 3 gallons, I regularly use one package of dry yeast for 2 & 2.5 gallon brews of cider and beer, which is also intended for 5 gallons and haven't noticed any problems yet.

And if you're setting aside 20%, you'll only have a little more than 3/4 gallon of juice per jug, which will be plenty of headspace.

Awesome! Thanks for the quick reply.

Haha yeah, I'll be absolutely sure we don't end up with bottle bombs.

As for the time frame, I've read several recipes that call for 1 week primary and 1 week secondary. What is the time frame you usually see with your ciders using wine yeast?

I'll definitely check for FG before bottling and back sweetening though. I think the OG was 1.055 when I checked the juice this morning, so I'll be aiming for a FG of 1.005 to keep ABV right above 6% after adding the extra juice/carbonation.

As for the plenty of headspace comment, is that in relation to my blow-off concern?

Thanks again!

 

[photobru]

To give an example, I started a batch of cider April 10th, so this Sunday will be 1 month, and there is still a steady stream of co2 bubbles fizzing up from the bottom. I haven't check the gravity, but I'd say that's a pretty sure sign fermentation is incomplete. This is using Montrachet Red Star wine yeast, with nutrient, plus 1/2# sugar for an OG of 1.065.

And yes, that's in relation to the blow-off tube question, shouldn't be necessary.

One last thing, I kind of doubt 2-4 days is going to get you to your desired level of carbonation, but at the same time you run a risk of bottle bombs if left too long, so I would try a search or find someone who has experience with the backsweetening/carbing process you're trying. Seems a little tricky and potentially dangerous for your first time making cider. Or maybe use PET bottles to be safe.

 

[brancaster]

To give an example, I started a batch of cider April 10th, so this Sunday will be 1 month, and there is still a steady stream of co2 bubbles fizzing up from the bottom. I haven't check the gravity, but I'd say that's a pretty sure sign fermentation is incomplete. This is using Montrachet Red Star wine yeast, with nutrient, plus 1/2# sugar for an OG of 1.065.

And yes, that's in relation to the blow-off tube question, shouldn't be necessary.

One last thing, I kind of doubt 2-4 days is going to get you to your desired level of carbonation, but at the same time you run a risk of bottle bombs if left too long, so I would try a search or find someone who has experience with the backsweetening/carbing process you're trying. Seems a little tricky and potentially dangerous for your first time making cider. Or maybe use PET bottles to be safe.

Interesting. Yeah, I'm not sure about timelines then. I keep seeing conflicting opinions on it. Maybe the recipes I see just aim for a specific FG and stop fermentation even if it isn't complete.

I guess that's what experimentation is for!

I did find a few instances of people doing the backsweetining/carbing process I'm trying and all recommend filling a durable plastic bottle with the cider and giving it a squeeze every day. Once it feels like an unopened carbonated beverage, it's done. Then I can heat pasteurize.

 

[MindenMan]

There are two ways to tell if primary fermentation is done: 1) the cider is clear enough to read through, 2) your hydrometer reading doesn't change for 3 days. I brew a lot of ciders and none of them ferment at the same rate. Cherry concentrate cider has taken almost three months to finish fermenting. Granted the O.G.'s of my ciders all start up being equal to 1.120, (I add the concentrate in stages), and a batch of just apple ferments out in three weeks. What I can say for sure from my experience is don't get in a hurry for your cider to finish.
Saying what you are aiming for ABV% wise confused me. Unless you are pasteurizing before your primary fermentation is finished, based on the amount of fermentable sugar and the yeast you used, what you get is what you get. I see you are planning on back sweetening and carbonating. The taste test method is how I do my applejack, but I have so much alcohol at that point I don't have to worry about bottle bombs, even if I add additional sweetener.

 

[brancaster]

There are two ways to tell if primary fermentation is done: 1) the cider is clear enough to read through, 2) your hydrometer reading doesn't change for 3 days. I brew a lot of ciders and none of them ferment at the same rate. Cherry concentrate cider has taken almost three months to finish fermenting. Granted the O.G.'s of my ciders all start up being equal to 1.120, (I add the concentrate in stages), and a batch of just apple ferments out in three weeks. What I can say for sure from my experience is don't get in a hurry for your cider to finish.
Saying what you are aiming for ABV% wise confused me. Unless you are pasteurizing before your primary fermentation is finished, based on the amount of fermentable sugar and the yeast you used, what you get is what you get. I see you are planning on back sweetening and carbonating. The taste test method is how I do my applejack, but I have so much alcohol at that point I don't have to worry about bottle bombs, even if I add additional sweetener.

I'm not sure why you'd be confused about me aiming for a specific ABV%.

You said it yourself, based on the amount of fermentable sugar and the yeast you use, you get what you get... well, controlling those factors will allow me to get what I want to get.

We can assume that the yeast is going to ferment the cider out dry if we let it go long enough. With knowing/adjusting my OG, my FG, how much I intend to backsweeten, how much priming sugar to add based on how much cider I have, etc, I'll be able to hit a considerably close target when it comes to the resulting ABV%.

The only questionable factor is going to be bottle carbonating. That's the only place I'll lose a bit of control. If I weren't bottle carbonating, and everything was within my control, I'm willing to bet I'd be able to hit an exact ABV if I wanted.

 

[Yooper]

If I weren't bottle carbonating, and everything was within my control, I'm willing to bet I'd be able to hit an exact ABV if I wanted.

Then you're a better cidermaker than I am, although I've only been making wines and ciders for 25 years so maybe I can still improve!

Here's the thing- while simple sugars do tend to ferment out completely, cider and yeast strains mean that you can have a wide variety of attenuation rates in the same ingredients.

For example, I press a mix of apples and crabapples for great flavor, both as cider direct from the press for the family, and for making hard cider.

If I use S04 ale yeast, that cider might finish at 1.004-1.008. If I use montrachet yeast, that same cider may finish at .990-.996. That is with the same exact OG, and the same exact ingredients except for the yeast strain.

Sure, you can get pretty close to a desired ABV, and if you've done it a number of times you may be able to guestimate a pretty decent attenuation with your chosen yeast strain- but it's not an exact number since yeast attenuation levels have a range. And many yeast strains will ferment simple sugars more completely than more complex sugars, but some will leave some residual sweetness.

 

[brancaster]

Then you're a better cidermaker than I am, although I've only been making wines and ciders for 25 years so maybe I can still improve!

Here's the thing- while simple sugars do tend to ferment out completely, cider and yeast strains mean that you can have a wide variety of attenuation rates in the same ingredients.

For example, I press a mix of apples and crabapples for great flavor, both as cider direct from the press for the family, and for making hard cider.

If I use S04 ale yeast, that cider might finish at 1.004-1.008. If I use montrachet yeast, that same cider may finish at .990-.996. That is with the same exact OG, and the same exact ingredients except for the yeast strain.

Sure, you can get pretty close to a desired ABV, and if you've done it a number of times you may be able to guestimate a pretty decent attenuation with your chosen yeast strain- but it's not an exact number since yeast attenuation levels have a range. And many yeast strains will ferment simple sugars more completely than more complex sugars, but some will leave some residual sweetness.

Okay, that makes sense.

And I'll take your word for it and bow down to your 25 years experience! Haha, I may be getting too bold, but I'm a perfectionist and even if I have to experiment with 10s of batches to get my recipes down to being somewhat predictable, I'll do it.

What if I didn't let the yeast ferment my cider dry, stopped it at a certain FG, added priming sugar, let it carb, then promptly pasteurized to stop fermentation? That would allow me a bit more predictability, would it not?

Something else I'm curious about...what about the cider making process makes it so difficult to produce exact results? Like brewing beer allows for?

Additionally, there has to be some way to get exact results. Otherwise commercial cider makers wouldn't be able to stay consistent, right?

 

[MindenMan]

I'm not sure why you'd be confused about me aiming for a specific ABV%.

You said it yourself, based on the amount of fermentable sugar and the yeast you use, you get what you get... well, controlling those factors will allow me to get what I want to get.

We can assume that the yeast is going to ferment the cider out dry if we let it go long enough. With knowing/adjusting my OG, my FG, how much I intend to backsweeten, how much priming sugar to add based on how much cider I have, etc, I'll be able to hit a considerably close target when it comes to the resulting ABV%.

The only questionable factor is going to be bottle carbonating. That's the only place I'll lose a bit of control. If I weren't bottle carbonating, and everything was within my control, I'm willing to bet I'd be able to hit an exact ABV if I wanted.

My ABV comment referred to intentionally stopping fermentation before it was finished, and w/o adding anything to it. I was unclear. Otherwise, you are correct based on O.G. and F.G.

 

[brancaster]

My ABV comment referred to intentionally stopping fermentation before it was finished, and w/o adding anything to it. I was unclear. Otherwise, you are correct based on O.G. and F.G.

Ah! Looks like we went off in two different directions then.

At any rate, thanks to you and a few others for allowing me to bounce information/ideas off of to get to where I'm at now!

 

[MindenMan]

If Yooper said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

 

[brancaster]

Still hoping she or someone else much more knowledgeable than I am can come in and answer a questions I presented earlier in the thread:

Something else I'm curious about...what about the cider making process makes it so difficult to produce exact results? Like brewing beer allows for?

Additionally, there has to be some way to get exact results. Otherwise commercial cider makers wouldn't be able to stay consistent, right?​

 

[Yooper]

Still hoping she or someone else much more knowledgeable than I am can come in and answer a questions I presented earlier in the thread:

Something else I'm curious about...what about the cider making process makes it so difficult to produce exact results? Like brewing beer allows for?

Additionally, there has to be some way to get exact results. Otherwise commercial cider makers wouldn't be able to stay consistent, right?​

Thought these were answered earlier, but the shortest answer is that the amount of sugars and yeast attenuation rates varied greatly. Brewing beer has the same variations, like you could get a FG of 1.016 this time, but 1.008 next time due to mash temperatures or yeast attenuation rates, so it's not like brewing is always exact either- once you make the same exact batch with the same exact temperature variations with the same yeast strain in the same exact pitch rate, THEN you know it won't vary. But even then, if your thermometer is off by 4 degrees, the FG WILL vary. It takes a very good brewer to make the same exact recipe with exactly the same OG, FG, and taste, from batch to batch.

You can certainly get an exact result with cidermaking- you can use the same exact combination of apples and ferment with the same exact yeast strain at the same exact temperature, at the same exact OG and at the exact FG. When you get to the FG you want, all you have to do is filter, carbonate and bottle. It's easy, but most homebrewers don't have sterile filtration or a way to force carb and then bottle. If you do, then you can definitely do this. It's not rocket science, but most homebrewers don't have the equipment or the know-how to do this.

Sterile filtration and kegging removes much of the needed guesswork. If you have that, then you don't have to worry a bit about the projected FG, as you will be bypassing that.

I have been doing this a long time, and I know if I use my mix of apples, it's generally an OG of 1.050 and a FG of 1.004 with S04 yeast, but .994 with EC1118. No real guesswork there, as that is an expected result.

 

[Paps]

Just to chime in.....
I beleive the commercial ciders are consistant in that i would bet they make higher abv cider to begin with and merely water down their product to a specific ABV akin to how spirit producers water down whiskey from barrel proof down to 80% ABV