First all-grain batch process - sanity check please

[mjohnson]

I’ve done 2 extract batches (just bottled my first) and in honor of National Homebrewer’s Day this Saturday, I’ve planned to get together with my buddies and brew some beer, drink some beer, and eat some grillables.

This will be my first extract batch. We have a 7.5 gallon turkey fryer and I’m putting together the easy do-it-yourself 10 gallon Rubbermaid MLT.

I’m not getting stressed about it or anything – whatever happens, we’ll have made beer, but I want to run through the brew day so I can print it out and not have to remember everything. That said, I wouldn’t mind a sanity check to make sure I’m not doing anything crazy. In particular, I'm curious if my mash in temps are correct.

Recipe
5 gallon batch of Northern Brewers’ Twisted Enkle kit
-- 7-lbs.-Belgian-Pilsner
-- 0.75-lbs-Belgian-Cara-8
-- 0.25-lbs-Biscuit-malt
Potential ~286

-- 1-oz-Hersbrucker-@-60”
-- 0.5-oz-Saaz-@-60”
-- 0.5-oz-Saaz-@-5”

Wyeast 3864 Canadian/Belgian Ale.

Target OG of 1.040

Process

• Mash0min 2.6 gallons of strike water at 161* for a mash temp of 149. Was going to heat water to 185 and let the cooler absorb some until 160. Will add grain to water while stirring
• Mash20min heat 5.25 gallons of sparge water to 180.
• Mash60min Vorlauf until clear and drain first runnings
  
• After 1st runnings, measure amount of wort and subtrack from 6.25 gallons (assuming 1.25 gallons boil off) to get the amount of sparge water needed.
  
• Add half the required sparge water, stir, steep for 2 minutes, vorlauf, and drain.
• Add remaining half the required sparge water, stir, steep for 2 minutes, vorlauf, and drain.
• Take gravity measurement and record
• Boil0min Add all wort to boil kettle and bring to a boil
• Boil0min Add 1 oz Hersbrucker and .5 oz Saaz
• Boil45min Add Immersion Chiller to boil
• Boil55min Add .5 oz Saaz
• Boil60min Add .5 oz of coriander seeds
  
• Chill to 60.
• Take gravity measurement
• Aerate the heck out of it via shaking.
• Pitch yeast package (not doing starters yet… I’ll get there)

Look ok?

 

[mightynintendo]

You should boil pilsner malt 90 minutes. Adjust water amounts accordingly.

Your boil-off rate depends on a lot of things but the most influential factor is the diameter of your pot. Make sure you're not under estimating. It's perfectly fine to over estimate as you'll just have a longer boil. It might mess with your hops a bit if you have to boil too long but you can always dry hop at the end if you think things are lacking.

I really don't get why you're adding your sparge in steps like that but to each his own i guess. That's going to take a long time.

It's possible you will lose about 3% of the water you use to sparge. I never get 100% back.

If you want 5 gallons of beer in your keg or bottles at the end of fermentation, you should really make a 6 gallon batch.

 

[Palefire]

Looks right on to me. Some people let it sit for longer in the sparge water (but others don't). Something to play with in future batches!

Also, the one piece of advice I can give is don't worry if things don't go exactly according to plan. First few AGs are all about figuring out your system and how it works (efficiency, boil-off rate, etc). View it as a fun learning opportunity (one that also happens to produce beer!) and you'll be great.

Good luck!

EDIT: Just saw the post above me - good point. Pilsner malt needs to be boiled for 90 minutes. You can mash thinner or use more sparge water to make up the difference.

 

[mjohnson]

I really don't get why you're adding your sparge in steps like that but to each his own i guess. That's going to take a long time.

I used this guide as my basis: http://www.suebob.com/brew/allgrain.htm
I'm guessing that you just sparge all at once? I suppose I could just do that too. How long do you let it sit?

I'll try to up the volumes a bit to do a 90 minute boil. Since I'm dealing with a 7.5 gallon pot, a full 6 gallon batch might be difficult. Maybe I'll get some of that stuff that stops boilovers just in case. I think I'll shoot for ~7 gallons of wort for the 90 minute boil which is cutting it a bit close. We'll just have to do the best we can. Don't worry, have a home brew and all that.

Also, the one piece of advice I can give is don't worry if things don't go exactly according to plan. First few AGs are all about figuring out your system and how it works (efficiency, boil-off rate, etc). View it as a fun learning opportunity (one that also happens to produce beer!) and you'll be great.

That is exactly my attitude. Mainly I want to process pretty well laid out so I don't have to think a whole bunch on Saturday. With a group of us around, there will be distractions, so if I have it laid out on paper, I'm hoping it will be more relaxing.

 

[mightynintendo]

Oh yeah, sorry I forgot about the 7.5 gallon thing. Hmm... Might be kinda hard to do a 90 minute boil in that. 1/2 gallon is not much space for headroom. You might shoot for 5 gallons instead of 6 and just take what you get for the final volume after break and trub losses. Still you should take efforts to avoid a boilover. I have a 12 gallon pot that will boil over with 8.5 gallons of wort if i'm not careful.

I sparge all at once and let it sit about 15 minutes or so.

When you drain your mash, drain slow (ball valve half open).

When you drain your sparge, drain fast. The faster drain reduces efficiency. Remember, you want good efficiency when you mash. You don't want to convert starches during the sparge and you don't want it to sit too long otherwise it will introduce tannins and will lend a "sucking on a teabag" flavor to your beer.

Also if you're using a 10 gallon water cooler and mashing at 149, you'll probably want your sparge water to be 185. I don't know how your system will act though so that's really just a hunch.

I hope none of this complicates matters for you. Brewing really isn't hard once you get the hang of it. Well, cleanup is a pain in the ass.

EDIT: Just visited that website. Lots of explanation and most of it's pretty good but I disagree with him on some points. He says "no long boil" which is just dumb because longer boils reduce dimethyl sulfide and you really want to boil that out of your pilsner malts. Also he makes sparging really complicated. Just heat water to 185, dump it in after you drain your wort, sit for 15 minutes, vorlauf and drain. 75% efficiency is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Clonefarmer]

EDIT: Just visited that website. Lots of explanation and most of it's pretty good but I disagree with him on some points. He says "no long boil" which is just dumb because longer boils reduce dimethyl sulfide and you really want to boil that out of your pilsner malts. Also he makes sparging really complicated. Just heat water to 185, dump it in after you drain your wort, sit for 15 minutes, vorlauf and drain. 75% efficiency is nothing to be ashamed of.

Absolutely correct with the extra boil for Pilsner. DMS is nasty and there is tons of it in Pilsner. The extra boil time will get rid of it.

185 for sparge seems pretty high though. At 170 the possibility of leaching tannins is pretty high. Personally I prefer single batch sparges between my strike temp and 170.

 

[StarCityBrewMaster]

185 for sparge seems pretty high though. At 170 the possibility of leaching tannins is pretty high. Personally I prefer single batch sparges between my strike temp and 170.

This is where I could use some clarification! I understand that anything over 170 could be bad due to tannins leaching so you want to raise the grain bed temp to say 168 or so. But in order to raise the grain bed to 168 you need to add water that is as high as 185+ depending on your system correct?

Is this a problem or is adding water at a high temp and stirring it until it cools to 168 not bad?

Or is it better just to pour sparge water in at 170 stir and let sit at whatever temp it drops to (probably around 155 or so).

Thanks

 

[StarCityBrewMaster]

............................accidental double post

 

[Yooper]

This is where I could use some clarification! I understand that anything over 170 could be bad due to tannins leaching so you want to raise the grain bed temp to say 168 or so. But in order to raise the grain bed to 168 you need to add water that is as high as 185+ depending on your system correct?

Is this a problem or is adding water at a high temp and stirring it until it cools to 168 not bad?

Or is it better just to pour sparge water in at 170 stir and let sit at whatever temp it drops to (probably around 155 or so).

Thanks

Right. In order to get your grainbed to 168, sometimes the first round of batch sparging is over 180 degrees. That's fine. Using 170 degree water, your 150ish degree grain bed would NEVER get to 168! You need to use hotter water to increase the temperature. You don't want the grainbed to go over 170.

Many of us add the water in two rounds, but we vorlauf and drain between. Some just do one addition, vorlauf and drain. You're ok either way. I think it was Bobby_M who did some experiments showing slightly better efficiency with dividing the sparge water in half.

 

[Clonefarmer]

This is where I could use some clarification! I understand that anything over 170 could be bad due to tannins leaching so you want to raise the grain bed temp to say 168 or so. But in order to raise the grain bed to 168 you need to add water that is as high as 185+ depending on your system correct?

Is this a problem or is adding water at a high temp and stirring it until it cools to 168 not bad?

Or is it better just to pour sparge water in at 170 stir and let sit at whatever temp it drops to (probably around 155 or so).

Thanks

I may be overly cautious and sparge lower than average. My sparge water is usually about 170 max. I don't check the temp during the sparge. After this thread though I am curious and going check the temp next batch.

 

[mightynintendo]

If you don't hit 170*F during your sparge, you are capable of converting some residual starches (depending on your mash conversion). The alpha amylase enzyme will convert starches up to 162*F This will mess with the sugar profile you were attempting to attain with the mash.

I said earlier that a fast drain during the sparge is good but that is just my opinion and not necessarily standard practice for batch sparges. A slower drain would probably rinse better. I just worry about tannin extraction when at those higher temps and that's why I drain quickly.

 

[DNW]

I’ve planned to get together with my buddies and brew some beer, drink some beer, and eat some grillables.

Just personal observation - things usually go better if you wait until the yeast is pitched before you RDWHAHB...

 

[mightynintendo]

Just personal observation - things usually go better if you wait until the yeast is pitched before you RDWHAHB...

I don't think I would know what to do if I didn't have a beer (or six) while brewing.

 

[Clonefarmer]

If you don't hit 170*F during your sparge, you are capable of converting some residual starches (depending on your mash conversion). The alpha amylase enzyme will convert starches up to 162*F This will mess with the sugar profile you were attempting to attain with the mash.

I like my beer dry and tend to mash at 148-150 for 90 min. I'm pretty sure I'm getting pretty close to full conversion. Any extra conversion from sparge hasn't been an issue for the sugar profile I'm looking for so far.

I was under the impression that alpha amylase converted starch to less fermentable sugars.

1.How does the extra conversion effect the sugar profile?

2.Would the extra conversion improve efficiency slightly or at the very least lessen the amount of residual starch?

3.Is this residual starch responsible for some of the body?

 

[hal2814]

Are you guys actually getting noticeable DMS using pilsner malt on a 60 minute boil? Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I've gone through a lot of pilsner malt in the past year doing some SMASHes and have never had a DMS issue from a 60 minute boil. I even did a 45 minute boil once to try to get DMS (father-in-law is a fan of Rolling Rock) and it was still a no-go.

 

[mightynintendo]

Alpha amylase does indeed produce less fermentable sugars (not unfermentable, however).

1. If you are attempting to make a crisp beer and you convert starches at the higher temp after your mash is done, you will be hosting some residual sugars that the yeast can't eat lending to more body in the end.

2. Yes, the extra conversion will improve efficiency slightly and will reduce the amount of residual starch in the mash.

3. Not really. Residual starches (if there are any) will be left behind in the spent grain or will settle out in your primary fermentation. Body is determined by the amount of dextrin and medium-length proteins present in the finished beer. In other words, unfermented sugars and the protein makeup of your grains.

 

[mjohnson]

Are you guys actually getting noticeable DMS using pilsner malt on a 60 minute boil? Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I've gone through a lot of pilsner malt in the past year doing some SMASHes and have never had a DMS issue from a 60 minute boil. I even did a 45 minute boil once to try to get DMS (father-in-law is a fan of Rolling Rock) and it was still a no-go.

I'd like to know about this too. I don't mind boiling for 90 minutes, but its going to be a challenge starting with 7 gallons in a 7.5 gallon pot. I did buy some fermitab today, so hopefully that will help.

Just a quick check, I still add the hops at 60, right?

 

[hal2814]

I'd like to know about this too. I don't mind boiling for 90 minutes, but its going to be a challenge starting with 7 gallons in a 7.5 gallon pot. I did buy some fermitab today, so hopefully that will help.

Just a quick check, I still add the hops at 60, right?

Right. You hop schedule is based on flameout, not start of boil.

 

[ajf]

Your procedure looks pretty good to me, but I have a few suggestions.
I have found that mashing at < 150 tends to take longer than 60 minutes to achieve a highly fermentable wort (and that's why you mash at such a low temperature). At that temperature, I would increase the mash time from 60 to 90 minutes.
You assume that 5.25g sparge water is all that is necessary. I'd heat about an extra gallon. The amount you collect depends on the dead space in the MLT. You may not need the extra sparge water, in which case you waste up to 1g water, but you may need some extra. After this session, you will know how much extra (if any) you need.
I agree with boiling a Pilsner based wort for 90 minutes (based on recommendations from people who know much more than I do), but as I've never gone lower than this, I can't honestly say that I know it is necessary. If you have capacity issues with your kettle, you could always do a split boil.
I wouldn't add the hops until after the hot break, as the break strips a lot of the IBU's. If you are boiling for 90 minutes, this should not be a problem.

Hope this helps,

-a.

 

[Clonefarmer]

Are you guys actually getting noticeable DMS using pilsner malt on a 60 minute boil? Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I've gone through a lot of pilsner malt in the past year doing some SMASHes and have never had a DMS issue from a 60 minute boil. I even did a 45 minute boil once to try to get DMS (father-in-law is a fan of Rolling Rock) and it was still a no-go.

I use quite a bit of Pilsner in several recipes and have only gotten DMS that was noticeable in one SMaSH Kolsch. It was a short boil time with a slow boil. How vigorous the boil is may effect DMS removal.

 

[mjohnson]

Hey all, everyone was so nice to post comments, so I thought I'd do a report. There were no disasters at all, and I pretty much took everyone's advice. It was pretty fun boiling 7 gallons in a 7.5 gallon pot. had a very small boilover, but nothing terrible (other than losing at beanbag toss).

Below is what I posted before, only modified with your suggestions. Short story: did a 90 minute mash, 90 minute boil. Modifications below are in bold.

Recipe
5 gallon batch of Northern Brewers&#8217; Twisted Enkle kit
-- 7-lbs.-Belgian-Pilsner
-- 0.75-lbs-Belgian-Carapils
-- 0.25-lbs-Biscuit-malt
Potential ~286

-- 1-oz-Hersbrucker-@-60&#8221;
-- 0.5-oz-Saaz-@-60&#8221;
-- 0.5-oz-Saaz-@-5&#8221;

Wyeast 3864 Canadian/Belgian Ale.

Target OG of 1.040 ended with 1.046

Process
&#8226; Mash0min 2.6 gallons of strike water at 161* for a mash temp of 149. Was going to heat water to 185 and let the cooler absorb some until 160. Will add grain to water while stirring. Hit the mash temps fairly well. The first water addition 2.5 gallons got it to 149 and over 30 minutes, it dropped to 146. At 30 minutes, I opened to stir and added hot a little hot water which bumped it to 152 and it fell over the remaining 60 minutes to 148. I blame the headspace in my rubbermaid cooler.
&#8226; Mash30min heat 6.25 gallons of sparge water to 180-185 (shooting for 168 w/grain).
&#8226; Mash90min Vorlauf until clear and drain first runnings SLOWLY. Nearly forgot to do this, but did it. Not sure how much it helped. I didn't see much chunky stuff.
&#8226; After 1st runnings, measure amount of wort and subtrack from 7 gallons (assuming 1.25-2 gallons boil off) to get the amount of sparge water needed. Got 2 gallons
&#8226; Add half the required sparge water, stir, steep for 2-5 minutes, vorlauf, and drain.Forgot to vorlauf. Oops. This sparge only got to 160 or so.
&#8226; Add remaining half the required sparge water, stir, steep for 2-5 minutes, vorlauf, and drain. Forgot to vorlauf. Oops. This sparge got to 172-ish. Maybe a tad high. RDWHAHB.
&#8226; Take gravity measurement and record: 1.037 @ 63ish*F
&#8226; Boil0min Add all wort to boil kettle and add 2 drops fermcap-s/gallon (14) bring to boil I'm pretty sure this was a lifesaver. The wort came within 1 inch of the top of the kettle. Even so, we were able to get a decent boil without any craziness.
&#8226; Boil30min Add 1 oz Hersbrucker and .5 oz Saaz
&#8226; Boil75min Add Immersion Chiller to boil
&#8226; Boil85min Add .5 oz Saaz
&#8226; Boil90min Add .5 oz of coriander seeds
&#8226; Chill to 60. Got it to 68
&#8226; Transfer to bucket with the aerator aerator attachement to siphon didnt really work well. I was having trouble getting and maintaining a good siphon. Not sure why. Just shook the bucket instead.
&#8226; Record volume of boiled wort: 5 gallons into fermentor exactly. woot.
&#8226; Take gravity measurement 1.046 @ 70*F - target for published recipe was 1.040, but we did a longer mash and longer boil.
&#8226; Aerate the heck out of it via shaking.
&#8226; Pitch yeast package no starter, soon though.

Over all, it went pretty smooth. Nothing too crazy other than forgetting the vorlauf on the sparge, and the 2nd sparge was a tad hot. But overall, I was pretty pleased.

I did the calculations for efficiency and I think I'm doing it wrong because I'm ending up with like 90%. I find that unlikely.

potential from grain = 286.
volume of wort = 7 gallons.
@100% = 286/7= 40.8
Reading before boil = 1.037ish
So, 37/40.8 = 0.90 - I highly doubt I got 90% efficiency.

Is there anything wrong with my math? I have had several beers, so I could be completely off. All the gravity measurements with between 60-70 degrees.

Even so, brewing with friends, having steaks, drinking good micro-brew (no homebrew is ready yet) and first all-grain. It was fun.

 

[ajf]

Congrats, and thanks for the feedback.
I checked your calculations, and I'm not quite sure what Belgian-cara-8 is, but assuming it has a potential of 1.035 pppg, I calculated the total points as 299 (using Promash to get the potential of the other malts). Your math looks good, but if Promash is right, it would reduce your efficiency to a paltry 86% if your grain, volume, and gravity readings were accurate.

-a.

 

[mjohnson]

Congrats, and thanks for the feedback.
I checked your calculations, and I'm not quite sure what Belgian-cara-8 is, but assuming it has a potential of 1.035 pppg, I calculated the total points as 299 (using Promash to get the potential of the other malts). Your math looks good, but if Promash is right, it would reduce your efficiency to a paltry 86% if your grain, volume, and gravity readings were accurate.

-a.

Yeah, I wasn't able to figure out exactly what that was either, so my total potential may be off a bit.

86%... the horror!

-------Edit to add:
I just was digging around the Northern Brewer forums and found a thread that said that Cara 8 is Carapils.

 

[mjohnson]

Did a gravity reading after 4 days and its 1.011ish (adjusted for temp). Drinking a bit and its not too bad. Should be a good summer brew. Pretty happy with my first all-grain attempt.