Filling in the gaps of a Japanese water report

[ebbelwoi]

Living as a foreigner in Japan, otherwise simple tasks can sometimes be quite daunting. In the case of my water profile, I was able to get some of the info I needed quite easily. Getting the rest of it might prove quite difficult, so I figured I might as well ask some fellow brewers.

We've got nice, soft water. The water company was able to give me this info:

Ca: 9
Mg: 2
Cl: 10
Na: 7
pH: 7.7

I've got some questions filling in the gaps:

1. They didn't give me an SO4 level, because they say they don't test for it. All of the other figures are quite low, so is it safe to assume that the SO4 level is quite low too? Any suggestions as to what number to enter into my default water profile in my brewing software? Does 20 sound about right? I realize there's no way to be sure, but if you had to enter a figure, what would it be?

2. Regarding bicarbonate, they said, "free coal, which is a similar item because it has not been inspected, I will answer with acid: 2mg/L (translation courtesy of Google Translate). I don't know what that 2mg/L would refer to. For now, I've left that field blank. I do use baking soda when brewing porters, and add lactic acid when making pilsners. I don't have a pH meter. Hoping to get one in the spring, maybe six months from now.

3. They also said they didn't test for alkalinity. Is that something I can test for myself, once I get a pH meter? Any ideas what to plug into my water profile there?

I wish I could just send a sample of to Ward Labs, but that's not feasible in my situation. For now, I'm just thinking of finding a city that has similar Ca, Mg, Na and Cl levels and using that as my own water profile. However, I'd really appreciate any input if there's a better way to go about it.

Thanks!

 

[rhys333]

Living as a foreigner in Japan, otherwise simple tasks can sometimes be quite daunting. In the case of my water profile, I was able to get some of the info I needed quite easily. Getting the rest of it might prove quite difficult, so I figured I might as well ask some fellow brewers.

We've got nice, soft water. The water company was able to give me this info:

Ca: 9
Mg: 2
Cl: 10
Na: 7
pH: 7.7

I've got some questions filling in the gaps:

1. They didn't give me an SO4 level, because they say they don't test for it. All of the other figures are quite low, so is it safe to assume that the SO4 level is quite low too? Any suggestions as to what number to enter into my default water profile in my brewing software? Does 20 sound about right? I realize there's no way to be sure, but if you had to enter a figure, what would it be?

2. Regarding bicarbonate, they said, "free coal, which is a similar item because it has not been inspected, I will answer with acid: 2mg/L (translation courtesy of Google Translate). I don't know what that 2mg/L would refer to. For now, I've left that field blank. I do use baking soda when brewing porters, and add lactic acid when making pilsners. I don't have a pH meter. Hoping to get one in the spring, maybe six months from now.

3. They also said they didn't test for alkalinity. Is that something I can test for myself, once I get a pH meter? Any ideas what to plug into my water profile there?

I wish I could just send a sample of to Ward Labs, but that's not feasible in my situation. For now, I'm just thinking of finding a city that has similar Ca, Mg, Na and Cl levels and using that as my own water profile. However, I'd really appreciate any input if there's a better way to go about it.

Thanks!

I would repost your question in the Brew Science section.

 

[day_trippr]

Japan is Technology Central. There must be a water testing lab service available to consumers...

 

[ebbelwoi]

Japan is Technology Central. There must be a water testing lab service available to consumers...

Japan is remarkably backwards in many ways. In this case, though, it's a language barrier.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I would repost your question in the Brew Science section.

Will do, thanks.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I was advised to cross-post this here, so here goes:

I asked my local water company for a water profile, and specified the information I hoped to get. I was able to get some of, but getting the rest of it might prove quite difficult. Due to the language barrier, it's going to be a real challenge to find a place that tests water for consumers. I figured I might as well ask some fellow brewers.

We've got nice, soft water. The water company was able to give me this info:

Ca: 9 ppm
Mg: 2
Cl: 10
Na: 7
pH: 7.7

I've got some questions filling in the gaps:

1. They didn't give me an SO4 level, because they say they don't test for it. All of the other figures are quite low, so is it safe to assume that the SO4 level is quite low too? Any suggestions as to what number to enter into my default water profile in my brewing software? Does 20 sound about right? I realize there's no way to be sure, but if you had to enter a figure, what would it be?

2. Regarding bicarbonate, they said, "free coal, which is a similar item because it has not been inspected, I will answer with acid: 2mg/L (translation courtesy of Google Translate). I don't know what that 2mg/L would refer to. For now, I've left that field blank. I do use baking soda when brewing porters, and add lactic acid when making pilsners. I don't have a pH meter. Hoping to get one in the spring, maybe six months from now.

3. They also said they didn't test for alkalinity. Is that something I can test for myself, once I get a pH meter? Any ideas what to plug into my water profile there?

I wish I could just send a sample of to Ward Labs, but that's not feasible in my situation. For now, I'm just thinking of finding a city that has similar Ca, Mg, Na and Cl levels and using that as my own water profile. However, I'd really appreciate any input if there's a better way to go about it.

Thanks!

 

[bracconiere]

Japan is Technology Central. There must be a water testing lab service available to consumers...

homebrewing is illegal in japan.....

 

[ebbelwoi]

homebrewing is illegal in japan.....

No, it's not.

 

[bracconiere]

are you sure?

i've always heard it was.....

and this is from 2019...


https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2019/06/01/food/homebrewing-japan-craft-beers-creative-foundation/

 

[ebbelwoi]

Yes, I am sure. It is legal to brew beer up to 1% ABV. The online homebrew shops in Japan post reminders on seemingly every page.

In more practical terms, the police have said that they will not enforce the law, calling it "unenforceable". As long as you don't try to sell it, it's fine.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks! I was a bit anxious posting there as well.

Looks like some of the sites have scaled back their warnings, or maybe I was just exaggerating, but:
https://themaltshop.biz/terms-and-conditions/https://www.sakeland.net/?mode=f1http://advanced-brewing.com/

 

[VikeMan]

2. Regarding bicarbonate, they said, "free coal, which is a similar item because it has not been inspected, I will answer with acid: 2mg/L (translation courtesy of Google Translate). I don't know what that 2mg/L would refer to. For now, I've left that field blank. I do use baking soda when brewing porters, and add lactic acid when making pilsners. I don't have a pH meter. Hoping to get one in the spring, maybe six months from now.

3. They also said they didn't test for alkalinity. Is that something I can test for myself, once I get a pH meter? Any ideas what to plug into my water profile there?

If your software asks for both Bicarbonate and Total Alkalinity, I would use:
Bicarbonate: 2
Total Alkalinity (if stated as as HCO3): 2
Total Alkalinity (if stated as CaCO3): 1.6

Note: Bicarbonate and Total Alkalinity as HCO3 are not exactly equal, but in this case would round to the same.

1. They didn't give me an SO4 level, because they say they don't test for it. All of the other figures are quite low, so is it safe to assume that the SO4 level is quite low too? Any suggestions as to what number to enter into my default water profile in my brewing software? Does 20 sound about right? I realize there's no way to be sure, but if you had to enter a figure, what would it be?

29 for SO4 would balance the ion charges. (There could be other anion species (not of interest to brewing) making up some of that balance, but OTOH, the same can be said on the cation side (i.e. there could be cations we don't know about on that side, increasing what would need to be balanced with anions). But using 29 should be fine.)

 

[VikeMan]

Answered in dupe post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-in-my-soft-water-report.685389/#post-8984705

 

[ebbelwoi]

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write that. I really appreciate it!

The only other mineral I have information on is potassium, at 1.1 ppg. Should I stick with the 29 for SO4?

My software (Brewfather) calculates the alkalinity for me, so I entered "2" for HCO3.

 

[VikeMan]

The only other mineral I have information on is potassium, at 1.1 ppg. Should I stick with the 29 for SO4?

You could use 30 for SO4 if you want. But again, we don't know what (else) we don't know. Either way, it won't affect pH predictions.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Great. Thanks again for your help. I'll probably sleep better tonight.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks a ton.

 

[ktojo]

Hi ebbelwoi, a Tokyo based newbie here, have the same Q re: water profiles. Cannot see VikeMan's reply to your question. Is there anyway you would be able to share in this thread?

 

[ebbelwoi]

For ktojo:

If your software asks for both Bicarbonate and Total Alkalinity, I would use:
Bicarbonate: 2
Total Alkalinity (if stated as as HCO3): 2
Total Alkalinity (if stated as CaCO3): 1.6

Note: Bicarbonate and Total Alkalinity as HCO3 are not exactly equal, but in this case would round to the same.

29 for SO4 would balance the ion charges. (There could be other anion species (not of interest to brewing) making up some of that balance, but OTOH, the same can be said on the cation side (i.e. there could be cations we don't know about on that side, increasing what would need to be balanced with anions). But using 29 should be fine.)

Also, feel free to PM me if you have any questions about homebrewing in Japan.

 

[ktojo]

Thanks a lot! been tinkering with water chemistry last few brews so this should get me closer to where i want to be! Thanks for the PM offer, will do!

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks a lot! been tinkering with water chemistry last few brews so this should get me closer to where i want to be! Thanks for the PM offer, will do!

I'm not in Tokyo, though, so I don't know how much my town's water report will apply to you.