Fermenters, Fruit and headspace

[Tony1212]

Rank newbie here. I've only got two 1 gallon kits batches under my belt. Neither of them are finished, so I have no idea how well I did yet.

I'm planning on sticking with small batches (1 to 2.5 gallons) for the foreseeable future due to reasons*. But I have a bunch of questions that are all fairly related and I'm not sure they would belong in separate threads.

I eventually would like to get to a point where I can brew a Chocolate Cherry Milk Stout - my favorite, but hard to find commercially. From the recipes online, I find I will need a secondary.

So I need a primary that will have enough headspace for a 2.5 gallon batch. Then I need to transfer to a secondary - ideally with less headspace - unless you veterans think the cherries will cause a secondary fermentation big enough to justify a secondary as large as the first?

Also, I'm still learning and figuring out my system. Specifically, how much volume I will lose in a boil. Therefore I'd like a primary with volume graduations on the side to measure my post boil volume. And I'd also like it to be clear so I can watch what's going on.

I found these Cambro Camwear round buckets that I thought I might use. But they only come in 8, 12 and 18qt (2, 3 and 4.5 gallon) sizes. Could I use the 3 gallon (12qt) size for both Primary and Secondary?

My concerns are that there is too little headspace for a primary for a stout. And too much headspace for a secondary that will just sit there. Am I right to be concerned?

The smallest carboy that I can find to fit a 2.5 gallon batch is a 3 gallon carboy. It won't reach the neck, so the surface area will about the same as the bucket, right?

Any other ideas? Please set me down the right path. Or at least _A_ path. I'm so confused, I don't know where to start.

*Those reasons being that I don't drink very much beer and my friends prefer the mass produced light beers. a 5 gallon batch will last me over 6 months. There are also cost and space concerns on my wife's part.

 

[mredge73]

A secondary is rarely necessary for ales, even for fruit additions. Just put your cherries in at the end of primary fermentation for 3-4 days, cold crash and bottle.
Be aware that commercial examples of this style are commonly artificially flavored; they will use real lactose but with cherry extract.
Hard to beat the mrbeer fermentors for small batches.

 

[Tony1212]

Wow! My OP was really all over the place, eh? Sorry about that.

A secondary is rarely necessary for ales, even for fruit additions. Just put your cherries in at the end of primary fermentation for 3-4 days, cold crash and bottle.
Be aware that commercial examples of this style are commonly artificially flavored; they will use real lactose but with cherry extract.
Hard to beat the mrbeer fermentors for small batches.

Thanks for this reply, but it brings up some more questions:

*Will opening up the bucket and adding the cherries force the CO2 "blanket" out?
**Will adding cherries directly to the primary "pull" O2 in with them?
**Other than slightly reducing oxidation risk and not having to clean my auto siphon, what is the advantage of keeping everything in the primary? The advantage of using a secondary would be to pull the beer off the trub and getting a clearer result, right?

*Most of the recipes online show about 1.5lbs of cherries for a 2.5gal batch (Actually, 5gal recipes cut in half). Midwest Supplies says 2lbs/gal (5lbs for a 2.5gal batch). And an article right here on HomebrewTalk says 1.4lbs/gal for a dark beer (3.5lbs for a 2.5gal batch).
**Any idea how much volume I would need to leave for these amounts of cherries? (I can't seem to find any fruit mass to volume charts/calculators on the web)

*And finally, am I getting too deep too fast?

 

[xpops]

you're in a tough position with a 2.5gal batch - but there must be someone on here that brews that size? a 3gal will be too small for a 2.5gal batch for both primary or secondary when adding a bunch of fruit, unfortunately.


i never use secondary unless i'm bulk aging, or adding fruit.
to me, the risk of oxidizing from a careful transfer is way less than splashing in several LBs of fruit.
That being said, i use carboys, with a small neck. if you're using a bucket, you can probably slide the fruit in nice and gently.

you will disturb the "co2 blanket" (which some seem to think is a bunk theory to begin with), and you will introduce o2. You should still be fine because the yeasties will go at the sugars in the fruit, thus absorbing more o2, and creating more co2.

i've used serveral fruits in secondaries, and never go up to 2lb/gal. I usually dont even go a full 1LB/gal, but i guess it depends on how much flavour you want.

3LBs of rasperries in 5gal provides a ton of flavour, but 3LB of blueberry or strawberry...not so much. i dont think you'd even get a lot more flavour out of those if you did 6LBs for 5gal. Depends on the fruit. depends on the beer. it really is trial and error here, and the odds of you hitting exactly what you were going for on the first shot is probably slim. It will still be good beer, but guarenteed you'll be doing a "i should have added more/less cherries!"

this hobby is a constant learning curve with plenty of experimentation! it's amazing

 

[mredge73]

1. yes
2. yes
3. negates 1&2, the yeast cake will quickly ferment the cherries and rebuild the "blanket" and scrub out O2. Cold crash will make your beer just as clear as a secondary will; I wouldn't worry about a secondary until you are ready to do lagers.
4. makes sense, you will need lots of cherries to get any flavor from them. This also adds a ton of fructose so you will have a vigorous fermentation and will thin the body. So you will need to find a balance here, stouts should have a pretty heavy body as in you want your FG 1.010-1.020 and adding simple sugars will reduce the FG. You are doing small batches so you can experiment, try differing amounts until you get it right.
5. They are slightly denser than water, so a little under half gallon.
6. yes, but it is ok.

 

[GrimBrewer]

You dont need to rack to secondary unless you going to age the beer in bulk for more than 3 or 4 weeks. There are lots of stories about longer bucket times. If you keep your ABV on the "normal" side then you wont need to age you beer that long...so no need for secondary. With good pitch rate and correct temperature control a ale turn around time is quick.

I dont know that much about fruit but would think you want to add it close after pitching than later, to reduce time for it to clear...maybe use a bag so you can easily remove the pulp to get the beer to clear faster.

I also brew 2.5 gallons. Specifically 9.5 liters in a 10.5ish liter bucket. But I haven't added fruit so far. When you do get to brewing with fruit either just ferment in a 4.5 bucket or make a smaller volume in the 3. Buckets are cheep, so start with the 3 and once you ready to use fruit get the 4.5 one.