ferment chamber - space heater...Safe??

[nick sekerak]

From what threads i have read, a mini space heater is the best option for a heating a fermentation chamber.

One similar to this one-

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lasko-Pr...01641334004219738528&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

I am a little unsure of how safe it is to use a space heater not under supervision?? It seems a little risky to me.

Are these actually safe since so many people are using them for this application?? I am a little skeptic. If this is unsafe, is a reptile heating pad the second best option??

 

[day_trippr]

The little Lasko units have been used for years by many and I've yet to read of a catastrophic failure.
That said, even 100 watts may be too much power unless the chamber is large enough or loses temperature quickly (eg: an outdoor or basement environment).

Lower wattage reptile mats work, as do reptile bulbs. I use 60w bulbs in my chambers...

Cheers!

 

[pigroaster]

I use two reptile bulbs. No light, great heat... Works safe!
I also agree mats would work but I like my bulbs because I think I get a more even heat for fermenting. On problem start ups I also use a heat belt! Just plug in a controller and put the thermostat on something like a cooler blue pack with aluminum duct tape to act as a heat sink and away you go.

The little Lasko units have been used for years by many and I've yet to read of a catastrophic failure.
That said, even 100 watts may be too much power unless the chamber is large enough or loses temperature quickly (eg: an outdoor or basement environment).

Lower wattage reptile mats work, as do reptile bulbs. I use 60w bulbs in my chambers...

Cheers!

 

[adman]

I ordered one of these mini space heaters for my mini-fridge fermentation chamber after I had difficulty raising the temperature of my beer using a couple of 40w heating pads. Even on low it appears to be pretty solid overkill--it has no trouble raising the chamber to the max that Fermentrack allows (90*) in 5-10 minutes. However, I wanted the additional heating power because my fermentation chamber is in my garage, where it is usually in the low 40s during the winter. When I started testing with the heating pads, we were in the middle of a cold snap and the garage temp was in the 30s. To the extent I want to do ales in the dead of winter, I think the space heater may be necessary.

 

[LBussy]

I use a 60w bulb in a paint can. The 60w is enough for a small kegerator-sized box in my unheated garage, and the can keeps the light from skunking the beer.

I think a space heater is too much as well ... but a fan is a good addition no matter which mode is running.

 

[day_trippr]

I initially had 100w reptile bulbs but they proved to be a bit too much for BrewPi to comfortably manage, so I was using 60w incandescents for awhile. But the 60w reptile bulbs I just got this week are working great and no light to worry about...

Cheers!

 

[Curt Parker]

What volume of space are you talking about in your fermentation chamber?

I use a chest freezer and have had zero issues using a travel hair dryer.

 

[adman]

I have a pretty small ferm chamber (between 4-5 ft^3), and as I said the small space heater on low (~120w) is solid overkill. However, I'm optimistic that Fermentrack will be able to manage it, in spite of @day_trippr's experience with BrewPi, which uses the same (or very similar) control microcode. Currently, Fermentrack is keeping the chamber within +/- 2º F of the 68º F set point in a 56º F garage when it's more or less empty (just a starter on a stirplate). Hopefully with the added mass of 5 gallons of beer, the chamber swings would be smaller (and less impactful, given the thermal mass of the beer).

So, yeah. I think these little space heaters are safe to use in a fermentation chamber. I also think they're probably overkill for most situations, unless you have an abnormally large chamber or an abnormally cold environment. But I'm still using one because it was cheap and easy.

 

[day_trippr]

Fermentrack relies upon the original/legacy BrewPi firmware (at least when running on an Arduino - I'm not sure what was used for the ESP support but I expect it was a port of the same code) to do the actual work, so my experience is verging on immutable.

The steeper the temperature change the greater the challenge to the control algorithms, with the typical adverse effect being bouncing between Cooling and Heating states. One can use that to determine a more optimal heating solution...

Cheers!

 

[adman]

Forgive me for taking this thread on a bit of a tangent...
@day_trippr, as you guessed, the temperature change with the heater on is pretty steep. As I said above, I'm not that concerned with it now--it's running in "Fridge Constant" mode and keeping the temp at +1/-2º F of the setpoint. In your experience, do the control algorithms struggle when using "Beer Constant" or "Beer Profile" modes--i.e. when the software is indirectly trying to control the beer temp via larger changes in the chamber temp? Just curious what I can expect on my next ale ferment.

Thanks!

 

[mongoose33]

From what threads i have read, a mini space heater is the best option for a heating a fermentation chamber.

One similar to this one-

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lasko-Pr...01641334004219738528&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

I am a little unsure of how safe it is to use a space heater not under supervision?? It seems a little risky to me.

Are these actually safe since so many people are using them for this application?? I am a little skeptic. If this is unsafe, is a reptile heating pad the second best option??

We must be reading different threads. I can't recall a single one where it was concluded a space heater was the best heat source for a ferm chamber.

IMO, you're far ahead to heat, not the ambient air but the fermenter directly. Use a FermWrap or a Seedling/Reptile heat mat held against the fermenter with a bungee cord or similar.

Then you place the temp probe against the fermenter with a piece of foam or other insulation over it to isolate it from ambient, so the temp probe records the temp of the wort, not the air in the ferm chamber.

If your ferm chamber is large enough you can do more than one fermentation at a time if you have heat mats, but a portable heater will not make that feasible.

Fermwrap 40 watt

Seedling/Reptile Heat Mat 18 watt

 

[TallDan]

I think a lot of people overestimate the heating they need in their fermentation chambers. I use a brew belt, it's label says that it's 20w. I didn't get it from NB, but it looks just like this one:
https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/brew-belt
I do 5G batches and have a 14CF upright freezer for a fermentation chamber. That little brew belt had no problem keeping ale fermentation temps in my Chicago suburb attached garage in the winter. Keep in mind, a refrigerator or freezer is intended to keep 0-40f temps in an environment of 70-80f efficiently. In this case, the 0f temps are outside and the 70F is inside, but that insulation works the same.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]In your experience, do the control algorithms struggle when using "Beer Constant" or "Beer Profile" modes--i.e. when the software is indirectly trying to control the beer temp via larger changes in the chamber temp? Just curious what I can expect on my next ale ferment.
Thanks!

The only place I use Fridge Constant is on my cold-conditioning/carbonation fridge, which doesn't need/have a heater.

The two fermentation chambers always use Beer Constant, and my observation has consistently been the faster the Heating ramp the more banging back and forth between Cooling and Heating modes. BrewPi will do its damnedest to hold the target temperature but it can literally ping-pong on a 10 minute period pretty much for-fricken-ever unless you throw a sabot at it

Otoh...a gentle ramp doesn't beat the PID so instead of a Hatfield and McCoy thing there is Peace in our time...

Cheers!

 

[adman]

Thanks for the explanation @day_trippr. I suppose I can always put my 45w heating pad back in there, since my garage is likely to be close to ale temps by the next time I brew an ale anyway...

 

[Carolina_Matt]

For the comments about space heaters being overkill, wouldn't that be solved by using an Inkbird to control the temperature? Assuming you use a chest freezer, the space heater would very quickly raise the ambient temperature (and the temperature of the wort) - then if it turns out to be overkill, the inkbird would turn on the freezer and it will drop it back down. Once it gets to a happy medium, I would think it would just occasionally go back and forth between heating and cooling.

The only portable heater I have is a 1500 watt space heater, and that would most likely be overkill - I wouldn't feel safe having that in a 5 cubic foot chest freezer. But the ~250 watt versions would probably do well. A fermwrap is probably safer and more efficient, but those don't work as well if you have two batches in there at the same time since the inkbird can only manage one heater.

 

[LBussy]

For the comments about space heaters being overkill, wouldn't that be solved by using an Inkbird to control the temperature?

No, because you'd have two control systems controlling the same thing. In short, the PID loop on the BrewPi would never auto-tune and therefore at best your control would be sub-optimal.

Use a lightbulb or ceramic heat element.

If you want precision control, you have to allow the control. To be completely frank: If you are going to take shortcuts and apply artificial constraints on your system elements, you might as well just use an Inkbird of STC1000 for the whole thing.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

No, because you'd have two control systems controlling the same thing. In short, the PID loop on the BrewPi would never auto-tune and therefore at best your control would be sub-optimal.

Use a lightbulb or ceramic heat element.

If you want precision control, you have to allow the control. To be completely frank: If you are going to take shortcuts and apply artificial constraints on your system elements, you might as well just use an Inkbird of STC1000 for the whole thing.

Oh, my bad. I overlooked the BrewPi aspect of it. My chest freezer is hooked up to an inkbird and nothing else (I don't have BrewPi) so I read the thread through that lens.

 

[LBussy]

No that was my bad. The thread popped up in my alerts and 90% of those threads are BrewPi (or a derivative) so I made a bad assumption.

Yes, there's no short-cycling protection that I know of in the Inkbird so you're likely fine. I'd still be pretty concerned about that much heat in a small place and the opportunity for disaster .... but that's a different problem.

 

[tellyho]

I have used a mini space heater in my chest freezer with a temp control for a number of years, no issue.

Recently, I've moved to a reptile heater wrapped around my fermenter with insulation, hooked to temp controller. I like that I'm only heating the thing that needs to be heated.

 

[balrog]

The inkbird/stc will ping pong unless you tune your heat/cool sources and temp pickups which can be done, but can be a royal PITA. More gentle is always better (means lower BTU, lower wattage sources). I've used the lasko forever. It can really depend on temp placement and coverage, which I do on fermenter side covered with foam. My chamber is (3.5x2.5x2) of leaky 2" foamboard taped/bunjied together, so maybe that volume mitigates a lot of rapid heating. But what @day_trippr says about ramp steepness is really the key.

 

[adman]

Thanks for the explanation @day_trippr. I suppose I can always put my 45w heating pad back in there, since my garage is likely to be close to ale temps by the next time I brew an ale anyway...

Just to close the loop on my question: the 100w space heater—while compact and inexpensive—was much too powerful a heat source for Fermentrack/BrewPi, precisely as @day_trippr predicted. While trying to maintain lager fermentation temps, and even with a slow ramp, Fermentrack had the heater and the fridge constantly fighting one another. I put my 45w heating pad back in there and all is right with the world. So these little space heaters are safe, yes. Perhaps even useful if you can control the heat/cool offset of your controller enough so that the heater and the fridge/freezer are not constantly fighting one another. But for my purposes, not useful. I guess I'll use the space heater to warm my feet in my office during the winter...

 

[burntchef]

So being completely new to fermentation chambers, I am confused. My plan was the 2" foam board box around my 12 gallon fermenter. Put 200w ceramic heater inside, plugged into inkbird controller. In the brew haus which is usually 40 degrees in the dead of winter. What am I missing here other than heating the space in the box opposed to heating the fermenter directly?
Eric

 

[day_trippr]

Not sure what you are missing but one take-away from this thread is folks tend to over-gun their heat sources for the need and have to back them down to a sane level.

But each installation is different, and a 2" foam box in a 40°F environment is atypical, so you'll likely have to do some experimentation to find a solution that's optimal for you...

Cheers!

 

[LBussy]

I did some really rough calculations when I was doing a similar space and I have a hard time seeing where more than 60w would be needed. You can get that with a lightbulb in a metal paint can. That’s what I use.

 

[tellyho]

I think it's crazy to have both your heat and cool plugged in for temp control. If it's winter, I just plug in heat. Summer: chill.

I'm not convinced you need to keep temps to the nearest degree.

 

[LBussy]

Then don’t. Some folks appreciate knowing that no matter what the temps will be right. Especially this time of year, temps can drop to a hard freeze them be up in the high 50’s the same week. Not having to go out and swap things is one less thing to worry about.

 

[burntchef]

Thank you all for the replies. I think I can buy a 100w ceramic heater as well. So if I start closer to the assumed 65 watt rough calculation I may be closer. I plan to heat only via the inkbird and trust the fair weather here is done for the year.
Eric

 

[LBussy]

Thank you all for the replies. I think I can buy a 100w ceramic heater as well. So if I start closer to the assumed 65 watt rough calculation I may be closer. I plan to heat only via the inkbird and trust the fair weather here is done for the year.

Also, have a look for ceramic reptile heading bulbs. This one is available in 60W, 100W and 150W. Not sure what country you are in, but I have seen similar in Europe. That way you can use the lower wattage but not have to put a bulb in a paint can.

 

[burntchef]

Well I pulled the trigger on a ink bird, the 2" foam board, a 200w desk heater. Am testing now, will let you know how I get on.
Eric

 

[downzero]

A 75 watt lightbulb seems to work just fine. I had to find some use for all these Edison bulbs!

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, a 200w heater is most likely going to be a problem wrt controlling chamber temperature. It would take a really large chamber in a really cold ambient to use half of that power and from others' experiences the controller will ping-pong between heating and cooling.

(And I love Edison bulbs! In the right fixtures they can take a room back in time)

Cheers!

 

[Robert65]

40 watt Fermwrap taped to the back wall is more than I really need in my full size fridge. 200 watts sounds like way too much to me. Gonna cook your beer and/or keep your fridge constantly kicking on to compensate.

 

[LBussy]

Fan! Always use a fan.

 

[grampamark]

Geez, I have a 25 watt bulb inside a piece of 3” dryer duct for a heat source in my ferm fridge. It seems to be more than sufficient.

 

[LBussy]

I have a 25 watt bulb inside a piece of 3” dryer duct for a heat source in my ferm fridge

That's a nice idea. I'd been using a paint can, but that might work better by allowing convection.

 

[grampamark]

That's a nice idea. I'd been using a paint can, but that might work better by allowing convection.

It was, basically, a target of opportunity. I had the small light fixture (salvaged from an old entertainment center) and a piece of ducting, also a leftover. It took 10 or 15 minutes to assemble and install and I figured I wasn’t out anything but my time if I had to come up with a Plan B. It has proved to be an adequate heat source.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I agree with others that you don't need much. A light bulb or reptile mat should be fine. But in my case, I just got a cheap ~$12 250W heater at Walmart, and it seems to be doing a good job. I have my inkbird set for 1 degree fluctuations (so with a 67 degree fermentation setting, it turns on heat at 66 degrees and it turns on cold at 68 degrees). I don't notice it cycling very much at all.

I'll likely unplug the freezer this weekend since it's starting to get colder in the garage.

 

[Surly]

I use a 60w bulb in a paint can. The 60w is enough for a small kegerator-sized box in my unheated garage, and the can keeps the light from skunking the beer.

I think a space heater is too much as well ... but a fan is a good addition no matter which mode is running.

Using a converted refrigerator I use the paint can method as well. I live in northern WI and brew in an unseated space. This winter I found I needed to upgrade to the 100w level. All is good.

 

[FrostyBeach]

All your unseated spaces are belong to us

 

[day_trippr]

I, for one, welcome our unseated overlords