Someone ease my mind. I'm brewing a 10 gallon batch in my Keggle right now and at the start of the boil I used fermcap to help control the boil. It was a brand new bottle and I don't think the lid was on tight. I squeezed and the lid shot off and almost the entire 30ml bottle went in the kettle. I'm hoping most of it will boil off over 90 minutes? Either way I'm assuming I won't die when I drink this beer. Or will I..........?
Fermcap S: whole bottle went in
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NervousDad
BFM
I wouldn't drink it. I believe at high levels it can damage your liver. At 10ppm (1 or 2 drops per gallon) the FDA recommends filtering it. You would way exceed that number.
Your beer may not have any head, due to all that silicone. Not sure I'd want to drink it anyway.
The safety of Fermcap S was outlined and presented in 1975. It is approved by the FDA and despite numerous times reading about how the FDA recommends filtering it I have yet to find any substantive evidence to support this statement.
I did a little research on the product recently for an article on HBT and it does not need to be filtered. I could find no FDA statement to this effect. Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction if I am incorrect.
The active ingredient is dimethylpolysiloxane and is used an an antiflatulence medication. Commonly given to infants. It is highly inert, is not metabolized and is non-toxic. It goes in one end and out the other unchanged.
It will in all likelihood aggregate with yeast and other particulate and settle into the layer of trub. I don't believe you should have reason for concern.
In addition to multiple short-term animal studies, one longterm study on it was carried out on rats. The rats were fine.
I did a little research on the product recently for an article on HBT and it does not need to be filtered. I could find no FDA statement to this effect. Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction if I am incorrect.
The active ingredient is dimethylpolysiloxane and is used an an antiflatulence medication. Commonly given to infants. It is highly inert, is not metabolized and is non-toxic. It goes in one end and out the other unchanged.
It will in all likelihood aggregate with yeast and other particulate and settle into the layer of trub. I don't believe you should have reason for concern.
In addition to multiple short-term animal studies, one longterm study on it was carried out on rats. The rats were fine.
Update. About halfway through the boil there was an opaque orange substance floating near the top. I have never witnessed this before and assume that it is the fermcap coagulated. With 15 minutes left I added whirlfloc and the Orange stuff broke into small balls. We'll see what happens once it's cooled.
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Did you take pictures?
I think I would have scooped out that orange gunk.
Unfortunately, I would probably not want to drink it. Even if the rats were okay, I just would be very worried. I certainly wouldn't share it. I couldn't stand knowing I made someone ill.
Poor luck, man.
Unfortunately, I would probably not want to drink it. Even if the rats were okay, I just would be very worried. I certainly wouldn't share it. I couldn't stand knowing I made someone ill.
Poor luck, man.
PlexVector
Mellow Goose Brewing
Compare the dosage assuming it all did make it to the final beer to the dosage of an OTC. Otherwise if you plan to drink it; only with a high fiber diet.
Sorry to say, I'm all for salvaging the impossible, but I think you should dump it. This is not good, even for starters, or dessert.
PlexVector
Mellow Goose Brewing
Let's compare it to Gas-X, which it's active ingredient Simethicone which is a mixture of polydimethylsiloxane and hydrated silica gel, and silica gel is silicon dioxide. We can ignore silicon dioxide which is well known as inert and used everywhere in pharma and food industry. I could not find out the ratio, but did find a blurb that polydimethylsiloxane should be between 90.5 to 99 % of the compound? The extra strength Gas-x label indicates 500 mg max in one day. (The tabs are 125mg, so that's 4 tabs max per day).
30mL of polydimethylsiloxane or rather dimethylpolysiloxane is just under the density of water, so lets assume worst case so 30mL is equal to 30g (real number would be around 29.1g). Let's also assume worst case in that none of the fermcap is lost in the brew process to make 10 gal.
30g/10gal = 3g/gal
3g/8pints = 375mg/pint
It looks like 1 pint could be the equivalent of taking 3 gas-x tabs at once. So does that mean it is within acceptable limits?
Although I would not drink more than 1 pint a day and only with meals, keep out of reach of children and pregnant persons.
If it does effect head retention that may be a good indication of how much passed through the process.
Based on worst case assumptions and if you can't find more precise information I'd be inclined to throw it out. Maybe a call to fermcap-S would help.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
No, it's not Beano. It's a bad idea to add Beano to wort as it's an enzyme that breaks down polysaccharides.
Let's compare it to Gas-X, which it's active ingredient Simethicone which is a mixture of polydimethylsiloxane and hydrated silica gel, and silica gel is silicon dioxide. We can ignore silicon dioxide which is well known as inert and used everywhere in pharma and food industry. I could not find out the ratio, but did find a blurb that polydimethylsiloxane should be between 90.5 to 99 % of the compound? The extra strength Gas-x label indicates 500 mg max in one day. (The tabs are 125mg, so that's 4 tabs max per day).
30mL of polydimethylsiloxane or rather dimethylpolysiloxane is just under the density of water, so lets assume worst case so 30mL is equal to 30g (real number would be around 29.1g). Let's also assume worst case in that none of the fermcap is lost in the brew process to make 10 gal.
30g/10gal = 3g/gal
3g/8pints = 375mg/pint
It looks like 1 pint could be the equivalent of taking 3 gas-x tabs at once. So does that mean it is within acceptable limits?
Although I would not drink more than 1 pint a day and only with meals, keep out of reach of children and pregnant persons.
If it does effect head retention that may be a good indication of how much passed through the process.
Based on worst case assumptions and if you can't find more precise information I'd be inclined to throw it out. Maybe a call to fermcap-S would help.
The difference I see here is that I would guess that a huge amount of the stuff has settled in with the yeast and trub. I would be very surprised if much made it into a keg.
Don't if you want to lose the Fermcap.
That will decant off the beer leaving the Fermcap in the yeast cake for reuse. Not a good idea if ridding yourself of the Fermcap is a concern.
exileonmainst
Well-Known Member
In my experience, Fermcap added to the boil will do little to control the krausen during fermentation. The boiling must deactivate it or something. But then again, I haven't dumped a whole bottle in either. I'd wager it's gonna drop out and you either left it behind in the kettle trub or it will end up in the yeast cake.
I'm with Gavin on this. Lots of people say it's bad, but there's no real source. If you Google it, there are a lot of threads from around 2011 of people saying the FDA recommends against it - yet this mythical FDA statement is no where to be found (by me at least). I'm inclined to think it's an old wive's tale.
Also, if you're going to wash the yeast and reuse it, what makes you think the Fermcap hasn't dropped down into the yeast cake, meaning you'll effectively repitch the whole bottle into your next batch? Really just playing devil's advocate here, but that seems at least somewhat plausible to me.
I'm with Gavin on this. Lots of people say it's bad, but there's no real source. If you Google it, there are a lot of threads from around 2011 of people saying the FDA recommends against it - yet this mythical FDA statement is no where to be found (by me at least). I'm inclined to think it's an old wive's tale.
Also, if you're going to wash the yeast and reuse it, what makes you think the Fermcap hasn't dropped down into the yeast cake, meaning you'll effectively repitch the whole bottle into your next batch? Really just playing devil's advocate here, but that seems at least somewhat plausible to me.
NervousDad
BFM
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=173.340
It's on their website. I say why risk it? It's a batch of beer.
It's on their website. I say why risk it? It's a batch of beer.
It's not. No mention of filtering. None. This is what the FDA says.
10 parts per million in food, or at such level in a concentrated food that when prepared as directed on the labels, the food in its ready-for-consumption state will have not more than 10 parts per million except as follows: Zero in milk; 110 parts per million in dry gelatin dessert mixes labeled for use whereby no more than 16 parts per million is present in the ready-to-serve dessert; 250 parts per million in salt labeled for cooking purposes, whereby no more than 10 parts per million is present in the cooked food.
Given how the molecule behaves and settles out adhereing to particulate there is no way that a level above 10ppm of dimethylpolysiloxane will make it to the final drinkable beverage. @Plexvector 's math is very good on this.
I'm not advocating for or against drinking it (the beer). I just wanted to share what knowlege I gleaned from researching it recently.
- Does not need to be filtered
- Inert
- Non-toxic
- Settles to the bottom via it's attraction to particulate.
FWIW, infants and adults are routinely ingesting this stuff directly at full strength, the amount left in your beer once settled and packaged will be far less.
I say drink up, if you can still muster a few burps and farts, your well below the recommended acceptable dosage.
I say drink up, if you can still muster a few burps and farts, your well below the recommended acceptable dosage.
Just to contribute to the discussion in a friendly manner, this confuses me a bit. Seems to me like you're dumping the beer, and reusing the portion that contains the reason your dumping the beer.
My thinking is opposite, but I'm often the odd ball.
Cheers!
^exactly^
Yeah this is my thought as well.
So after spending all day researching this and going back and forth about what I'm going to do, I've decided to see this brew through to the end.
Most of what I've read states that this substance doesn't actually become part of the liquid mass therefore it can be removed by careful racking and cold crashing.
At the very least I will get in the keg after a lengthy secondary and see what I have. At this point it's fermenting with a nice thick head of Krausen. I cleaned out the kettle after work today as brew day ran late last night. I was able to spot some gel like substance in the trub. The same goo that was floating in the kettle after the "incident".
I'm pretty confident that by the time this makes it to the glass it will be perfectly fine beer.
Thanks for the discussion and I'll update my findings at a later date.
Most of what I've read states that this substance doesn't actually become part of the liquid mass therefore it can be removed by careful racking and cold crashing.
At the very least I will get in the keg after a lengthy secondary and see what I have. At this point it's fermenting with a nice thick head of Krausen. I cleaned out the kettle after work today as brew day ran late last night. I was able to spot some gel like substance in the trub. The same goo that was floating in the kettle after the "incident".
I'm pretty confident that by the time this makes it to the glass it will be perfectly fine beer.
Thanks for the discussion and I'll update my findings at a later date.
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