Extract or all grains

[clinton69]

Hello new to this forum.
Huge fan of craft beers. I recently been introduced to home brewing. I have a friend that brew extract and swear by it but another friend does all grains. I for the life of me have a hard time deciding which one is making the best beer.

One thing I know is that I want to give it a shot. Each my friend have been telling me the advantage of their method.

So I'm turning it to you? which is best and which method gives you the better quality or freedom to make beery to your liking?

I'm really sitting on the fence now, would love to hear from people with more experience.

I understand that all grain set up is more expensive but I'm not really worried about that. I also understand that extract might be easier to start with.

Please help me make a decision

 

[Yooper]

Honestly, the "best beer" isn't dependent on whether it's all grain or extract. I've had plenty of terrible all-grain beers and some excellent extract beers (and vice versa).

It's all about the fundamentals- temperature control during fermentation, fresh quality ingredients, proper yeast health and pitching amounts, and sanitation.

Since it's often easier to start with extract batches due to being able to use already-owned equipment, why not do a couple of extract batches to get the fundamentals down, and then try partial mashing or all-grain if you want to delve further into the hobby?

 

[completenewbie]

I started with extract, nailed all the other parts of the process, and then moved onto all grain - the move between the 2 was simple, 80% of the process is the same. I tell all my friends who want to start brewing that they should do it the same way. Do some extract brews, ideally nice fast session beers so that you can turn them around quickly and learn from your mistakes, and move on when you're comfortable with temp control, sanitation, and all the other super important basics.

Some of my extract brews stand up nicely to craft brews from the store. I find very few craft brews (from a bottle) that I would take over one of my homebrews.

 

[Waynep005]

Like the others have said good and bad beer can be made with eather method. You do have some more controll over your beer with all grain since you are choosing what malt is being used instead of the company that made the extract.

 

[freedombrew]

Yooper's dead on about the fundamentals. My biggest improvement in beer quality came from better temperature control during fermentation and doing yeast starters to get the pitching rate up.

Having said that, somehow extract still felt a little like cheating. We made some great extract brews, but I like the idea of turning grain into beer better. You could always do a brew in a bag to keep it simple at the start.

 

[NineMilBill]

Since these guys are your friends, why don't you jump in on a brew session with each of them? The one you find more fulfulling - well, do that.

 

[beergolf]

Yooper nailed it.

Good brew can be made with either method. So can bad brews.

I have done them all. Extract, partial mash, all grain. They all work.

One of my best brews was an extract with steeping grains. On the other hand I can do some brews that I cannot brew as extract brews. So partial mash or all grain gives some more options.

Don't get hung up on the technique, but focus on the fundamentals. Sanitaion, proper pitching rate, fermentation temp control. and you can make great brews.

 

[clinton69]

All good advices. I guess I'll start with extract, but before launching into it I'll go and do a brew with both my friends before deciding.

I can't wait to taste a beer I have made myself.

 

[Calder]

Have them make a beer for you; or help you make the beer. You pay for the ingredients and give them half of the bottles. That way you have some skin in the game.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Honestly, the "best beer" isn't dependent on whether it's all grain or extract. I've had plenty of terrible all-grain beers and some excellent extract beers (and vice versa).

It's all about the fundamentals- temperature control during fermentation, fresh quality ingredients, proper yeast health and pitching amounts, and sanitation.

Since it's often easier to start with extract batches due to being able to use already-owned equipment, why not do a couple of extract batches to get the fundamentals down, and then try partial mashing or all-grain if you want to delve further into the hobby?

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Extract is a great way to get started, it makes it more accessible and lets you focus on the important things like process and fermentation. All grain is more advanced, but not harder, it just lets you have total control over your beer. I brew both extract and all grain beer still, and if you have a good recipe, a solid grasp of the fundamentals that Yooper listed, and use fresh ingredients (VERY IMPORTANT), you can make amazing beer either way ya go.
Also, I can't stress enough how important it is (at least for me) to learn as much as you can; read, research, ask questions (you have a leg up, you have at least two buddies who brew), join a club if you can, read some more and ask more question.... and experiment. If you want to know how something works in your brewery, do it. No better experience that you own.

 

[divrguy]

Yooper said it best. I do both. Temperature control is on of the most important factors when I started brewing better beers. I extract, partial mash, BIAB and partial BIAB depending on the beer. I also buy fresh extract and that makes a huge difference too. Extract is a short day and if you're just making a simple IPA or APA then why not! But if I want a specialty beer, you have to either all grain or partial mash it. Have fun with it.

 

[logan3825]

The only thing I will add is that if you decide to start with extract, get at least an 8 gallon pot. That way everything you buy to brew extract will carry with you to all-grain when/if you decide to make the jump.

 

[JDFlow]

Extract is like a power tool. Your efficiency never changes. It doesn't really matter what tools you use, but in certain cases a screwdriver is going to fit where a drill won't. When you want control of these fine areas you'll need something besides a power tool.

 

[clinton69]

Thanks for all the advices. I have been watching a few homebrewing videos on Youtube. It seems to me that If I get started with extract. All I would need once I want to step up to all grain is a mash tun? The brewing process seems to be a lot faster when using extracts.

Is it better to use liquid extracts or the powder malt?

I will start with extract but I think that I will rapidly switch to all grain. I like to make everything from scratches, my bread, pancake, pizza dough... So the idea to mix some syrup or powder with some water and there is beer seems a little strange to me. But there seems to be plenty of people who are doing it this way.

My extract friend is making very descent beer and now that I have seen how it is made I'm quiet surprised of the result. My All grain bud is probably making beer that is to my taste a bit better but he has been doing this for years now.

I'll be doing a brew with my all grain friend next Saturday. Can't wait to experience that.

Once again thanks for the advice, it seems that there is a great and very helpful crowd on this forum.

 

[amandabab]

So the idea to mix some syrup or powder with some water and there is beer seems a little strange to me. But there seems to be plenty of people who are doing it this way.

.

This is one of the big mistakes people that are still researching methods and haven't done it at all, or not much, make. Getting the fermentable sugars is a miniscule and probably the least important part of the process.

 

[unionrdr]

I use LME (liquid) & DME (dry powder) in my ales. But I also add different kinds/amounts of hops depending on what style I'm brewing. I also use different combos of malts for the same reasons. So it's not exactly beer kool-aid.

 

[Antler]

Id suggest you buy a turkey fryer so you can do both using the BIAB method. Do some extract brews, do some AG beer and that should lead you which way you want to go. Either way, you'll still be able to use your pot in your setup when you make a final decision.

 

[clinton69]

This is one of the big mistakes people that are still researching methods and haven't done it at all, or not much, make. Getting the fermentable sugars is a miniscule and probably the least important part of the process.

I'm aware that you add hops, sugar and spices. But that is common to both methods. I was just saying that mixing powder with some water to get the wort seems strange to me.

I was wondering how do you convert an all grain recipe to extract. What is the ratio to substitute base malt by malt extract? If there is such a thing?

 

[wfowlks]

The one advice I would give, to any home brewer... Get as big of a pot as you can to start out with. I started out with a 9 gallon pot and that was great for up to 10 gallon extract batches.

Then when I went all grain, I decided to do BIAB because its almost exactly like extract, except you just mash instead of steeping the grains for 30 min. But the only draw back was I needed a big pot. I got a 20 gallon for 146 on amazon, but my original 9 gallon was 90$. I wish I had plunked down the extra $56 to begin with.

But best of luck to ya!

 

[bleme]

I'm aware that you add hops, sugar and spices. But that is common to both methods. I was just saying that mixing powder with some water to get the wort seems strange to me.

I was wondering how do you convert an all grain recipe to extract. What is the ratio to substitute base malt by malt extract? If there is such a thing?

Not all grains have an extract equivalent so you have to partial mash or all-grain those recipes. There are several brewing software apps that will convert an all-grain recipe to an extract or partial mash recipe (and visa-versa). Brewmaster 2 is probably the most popular.

 

[divrguy]

+1 wfowlks

I bought a 5 gallon pot then a 8 the a 10 then a keggle. Wish I would have bought the big pot first!

 

[bleme]

I meant BeerSmith 2. Got the name mixed up with my iPhone app

 

[clinton69]

I meant BeerSmith 2. Got the name mixed up with my iPhone app

I'll check it out. Thanks.

 

[clinton69]

+1 wfowlks

I bought a 5 gallon pot then a 8 the a 10 then a keggle. Wish I would have bought the big pot first!

I live in an apartment so I might have size limitation.

 

[bleme]

I live in an apartment so I might have size limitation.

Depends on your place, but a 10gal fits over 2 burners on my stove. When I brew at my friends we have to use the 5gal because his microwave is built into his hood. It still covers 2 burners though, which sure helps with the boil!

 

[clinton69]

Bleme you are dangerous. I'm trying to be reasonable...

 

[jubelale]

In a word "Either" will make beer. I'm with the opinion of get as large of a pot as you can afford. I use to think a 24 quart pot was big, then a 32q, then a keggle. Looking at 30 gallon pots now.

Also I know it seems backwards when starting out but read as much about yeast, fermentation, and temperature control as you can. Listen to the Brew Strong podcasts on the brewing network about sanitation and fermentation temp control. Don't worry so much about how to get the sugars. Worry about after the wort is made. This is where yeast make the beer. We just make wort. Give the yeast the cleanest temperature controlled environment in the healthiest condition and you will get great beer.

 

[wfowlks]

I live in an apartment so I might have size limitation.

I live in a row house and the 20.5 gallon fits over two burners, and is just short enough to fit under the vent hood

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Also I know it seems backwards when starting out but read as much about yeast, fermentation, and temperature control as you can. Listen to the Brew Strong podcasts on the brewing network about sanitation and fermentation temp control. Don't worry so much about how to get the sugars. Worry about after the wort is made. This is where yeast make the beer. We just make wort. Give the yeast the cleanest temperature controlled environment in the healthiest condition and you will get great beer.

Nothin' backwards about that. Those are some of, if not the most important aspects of making great beer. If I could go back, I'd've read up on that stuff first instead of the fun things like recipe design and what cool equip I may or may not need. As a brewer, yeast is your top dog, treat them as you want them to treat you.

 

[jubelale]

Kinda off topic but the advice to just use dry yeast to new brewers seems to make the yeast seem like its just another small step. Just open the pack and throw it in. When in reality the yeast and sanitation are THE most important aspects in brewing.

 

[devils4ever]

I would recommend starting with extract brewing. It's less time consuming and simpler. That said, I never really loved my extract brews. They were good, but not great. Once I switched to all-grain, my beers became great! Do 2 or 3 extract brews first to get down the process and then decide if homebrewing is for you and if you are willing to commit the time and money to switch.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Kinda off topic but the advice to just use dry yeast to new brewers seems to make the yeast seem like its just another small step. Just open the pack and throw it in. When in reality the yeast and sanitation are THE most important aspects in brewing.

Again, I agree. I think a lot of the 'intro to brewing' stuff is less than helpful. Take 'The Joy of Homebrewing' or the online version of 'How to Brew', both great books, but full of dated and simplified information. Before I ever brewed a batch, I read the former, and it taught me a lot. But it left out some really important bits of info like making sure you pitch enough yeast and how important it is to control and maintain temps during fermentation. Since the craft is ever changing, and since we're learning more and more about how to make the best beer, I think it's really important for new brewers to stay current, read magazines like Zymurgy and BYO, read here on HBT, and to brew a lot. Nothing like experience.

See how I did that there with the words and such? How I kinda brought us back on topic and whatnot with that last sentence and such? And to think I'm still working on my first cup of coffee, it's gonna be a good day. :rockin:

 

[jetmac]

I started with all grain. The biggest difference (and really the only difference) is with extract brewing you buy the wort already made. With all grain, you are making your own wort. But either way, you either mix hot water with the grain to get complete wort or you mix water with the extract to complete the wort. So there's really no big difference. Ya, you need a mash tun and all but really no big deal.

When you decide to go all-grain (and I hope it's soon) you may want to try 1 gallon batches first from Brooklyn Brew Shop

But, as Yooper said, temperature control(throughout the process) and sanitisation(?) are most important.

 

[jetmac]

Do 2 or 3 extract brews first to get down the process and then decide if homebrewing is for you and if you are willing to commit the time and money to switch.

What, an extra 45 min and $60 for a mash tun?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

What, an extra 45 min and $60 for a mash tun?

Not saying AG is any harder that any other method of brewing, but what sir, in you AG brew day only adds 45 mins over an extract batch? IME, the sacch rest alone takes ~45 mins to an hour, not to mention heating strike water and sparging. My avg AG brew day is 5.5-6 hours, I can get an extract batch done, pitched and in the cooler in under 2.5 hours. Mind you I could probably shave an hour off an AG day, but I like to drink beer. I think your estimate may be a bit short of reality, but I get the point you're making, AG is as easy as extract brewing, it just requires a bit more time.

 

[Antler]

Not saying AG is any harder that any other method of brewing, but what sir, in you AG brew day only adds 45 mins over an extract batch? IME, the sacch rest alone takes ~45 mins to an hour, not to mention heating strike water and sparging. My avg AG brew day is 5.5-6 hours, I can get an extract batch done, pitched and in the cooler in under 2.5 hours. Mind you I could probably shave an hour off an AG day, but I like to drink beer. I think your estimate may be a bit short of reality, but I get the point you're making, AG is as easy as extract brewing, it just requires a bit more time.

Alot of people here have some pretty impressive brew times. I don't think your right. On a 3 vessel setup maybe, but BIAB can make for a much faster day. My first BIAB 4.5 hours from setup to cleanup up, I mashed for 90 minutes and boiled for 90 minutes. I'm confident I can get my day down to 3hrs once I get used to my equipment and the process, but I don't do sach rest.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Alot of people here have some pretty impressive brew times. I don't think your right. On a 3 vessel setup maybe, but BIAB can make for a much faster day. My first BIAB 4.5 hours from setup to cleanup up, I mashed for 90 minutes and boiled for 90 minutes. I'm confident I can get my day down to 3hrs once I get used to my equipment and the process, but >I don't do sach rest.<

I only do BIAB for AG batches. And what do you mean you don't do a sacch. rest? Last time I checked the sacch. rest was where starch was converted to sugar.... can you even get fermentable wort without a sacch rest? Without a sacch rest my brew day would be a lot shorter too.

 

[ludomonster]

I do partial mashes. I'll use LME if I don't have to measure it. Generally, I make my own recipes. I do this by doing a bit of research on the style. I'll look up the BJCP style guidelines, the Jamil Show, Brewing Classic Styles and Brew Strong. The BJCP gives me a rough idea of what the beer should be like and gives me some tips on ingredients. I keep a lot of notes on designing beers as well. I know how much grain my partial mash system can handle. So I start with my specialty grains. I then add base malt to my capacity. After that, I add what usually ends up being 3 or 4 lbs of DME. If I call for 3 lbs of DME, I'll replace that with 3.3 lbs of LME.

The basic recipe for my beers is this:
Possibly two different kinds of Crystal Malt
Possibly 1/4 lb of Vienna, Victory, xor Honey Malt.
Maybe some other malt
Base malt
Light DME

Hops at 60
Hops at 1

US-05

I'll start here and modify to style or my liking.

 

[jetmac]

My avg AG brew day is 5.5-6 hours, I can get an extract batch done, pitched and in the cooler in under 2.5 hours.

Really, it takes you an extra 3-3.5 hours to mash? (well I was exagerating a bit but not that much)

I have never extract brewed so I am making a WAG at this, but, I would think it would take no longer to heat strike water for a mash tun than it would take to heat water to pour extract into. Now, the actual mash itself will be as little as 30 min and maybe as much as 90min( add 10-15 min to vorlauf and drain, sparge, vorlauf and drain). So, the 30 min it takes to mash is only maybe 20 to 25 min longer than it takes to open the cans of extract and pour and scrape the extract into the kettle. And 15 min for alll that draining and sparging stuff. That's 40-45min extra.

 

[Antler]

I only do BIAB for AG batches. And what do you mean you don't do a sacch. rest? Last time I checked the sacch. rest was where starch was converted to sugar.... can you even get fermentable wort without a sacch rest? Without a sacch rest my brew day would be a lot shorter too.

For everyone in this thread, I take back my previous state about the sacch rest. I apparently have no idea what that means. I thought sacch rest and protein rest were one and the same. Sorry for the confusion. I'll hide now...