"extract note"?

[blues_N_beer]

I picked up a copy of Dave Miller's "Brew Like a Pro" for really cheap on Kindle. I'm getting ready to brew my first ever batch (extract), but this book seems like it could be a good adjunct to Palmer's book when I get to the all grain level.

Towards the beginning, Miller states that a lot of beers made with malt extract have an "unmistakable 'extract note' that is quite different from the malt flavor of beer that is made in the traditional way.'" He states that this is prevalent in beers that are "free of infection and other typical flaws."

Any idea what he's talking about? Anything to worry about?

 

[Upthewazzu]

It's fairly contentious issue on here that comes up from time to time. My personal theory is that when doing a partial boil, the taste/smell is more prevalent than when doing a full boil. This is based on the fact that for the last year I was doing extract partial boils and my bro-in-law was doing extract full boils. His beers were considerably better than mine, even though we have the exact same processes/sanitation/rituals (and water, in some cases).

 

[itchygomey]

I agree with partial/full boil described above and would also add that late additions seem to have made a difference for me as well.

 

[Cyclman]

Extract brewers (the newer, the more potentially problematic) are more likely to underpitch, not to oxygenate optimally, are less likely to have fermentation temperature control, and are sometimes just less experienced. Extract can age / oxidize, and is more suceptible to darkening during longer boil times.

All this can add up to "extract twang." On the other hand, extract beers have won Gold medals many many times. I have always felt it is about the brewer and the ingredient quality, not merely extract vs. all grain.

After buying a 3-tier all grain system, I wanted to start doing small BIAB batches so I could experiment. Did one batch so far, a Dark Chocolate Porter, based on uncarbonated flavor, I may submit it to a spring competition, it's so delicious. I am now a BIAB believer. If I were to go back in time, I'd have moved on from extract to BIAB much sooner. And while I love my 3-tier (get to pretend I am a REAL brewer, though that is more in my head than the bottle) stovetop BIAB small batches are SO much easier.

 

[Alcoholica]

This is based on the fact that for the last year I was doing extract partial boils and my bro-in-law was doing extract full boils. His beers were considerably better

I've always heard not to add all the extract until you boil the hop additions. Guess that keeps you from caramelizing the malt ..Do you think you like his brew better because you prefer the more caramelized malt.. Or do you think it's because the hop oils took better this way?

 

[gbx]

All this can add up to "extract twang." On the other hand, extract beers have won Gold medals many many times. I have always felt it is about the brewer and the ingredient quality, not merely extract vs. all grain.

I read stuff like that but I don't think its happened recently or with the same extract they sell around here.

 

[40watt]

I know for a fact some people can make great extract beers.
It seems I'm not one of them.

My first several batches were extract. All had a flavor or "note" or "twang" that I did not like. That flavor disappeared on my first all grain batch.

I suspect that, despite my efforts, I was getting some scorching in the kettle, but I honestly don't know.

 

[BigFloyd]

Extract brewers (the newer, the more potentially problematic) are more likely to underpitch, not to oxygenate optimally, are less likely to have fermentation temperature control, and are sometimes just less experienced. Extract can age / oxidize, and is more suceptible to darkening during longer boil times.

All this can add up to "extract twang." On the other hand, extract beers have won Gold medals many many times. I have always felt it is about the brewer and the ingredient quality, not merely extract vs. all grain.

Agreed.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I've always heard not to add all the extract until you boil the hop additions. Guess that keeps you from caramelizing the malt ..Do you think you like his brew better because you prefer the more caramelized malt.. Or do you think it's because the hop oils took better this way?

I did late extract additions on about half of my brews while he never bothered with it. All his brews turned out well, while all mine turned out poor (some were ok). The only difference was the boil size. I managed to upgrade my kettle about a month ago to do full boils, but also built a mash tun, too. So extract is probably in my past. I guess I could do one more extract kit with the full boil kettle to see if that makes a difference.

 

[blues_N_beer]

Sigh... As good as Palmer's book is, I'm learning that there is A LOT of knowledge and experience that goes into making a good extract beer, especially when you're on a budget. Good thing I'm taking a lot of notes! Looks like I'll be putting together a swamp cooler for fermentation :smack:

 

[bbohanon]

Coming from an extract background, I noticed the "extract twang" myself. It goes away after conditioning the beer a little longer than 2 weeks for extracts, but once I jumped to AG, the twang went away. I get more of a natural taste in the beer with AG.
Some say this twang is a myth, but I can testify that I did notice it when I did/do extract beers.
Again, the taste is not as prominent after 3-4 weeks in the bottle, but I can tell the difference 2 weeks out on extract vs AG.
Just my .02

 

[gbx]

Coming from an extract background, I noticed the "extract twang" myself. It goes away after conditioning the beer a little longer than 2 weeks for extracts, but once I jumped to AG, the twang went away. I get more of a natural taste in the beer with AG.
Some say this twang is a myth, but I can testify that I did notice it when I did/do extract beers.
Again, the taste is not as prominent after 3-4 weeks in the bottle, but I can tell the difference 2 weeks out on extract vs AG.
Just my .02

The "there is no such thing as extract twang only crappy brewers" thing seems to come from Jamil and John Palmer and most people you talk to who state it haven't done any extract brewing lately. At best, they won a gold medal 5+ years ago with an extract beer. I don't understand why its hard to believe there would be an extract taste. The same recipe made with different base malts, mash temps, decoction, first vs 2nd runnings, kettle caramelization all would taste different so why wouldn't dehydration?

 

[CrookedTail]

Since my wife got pregnant, I've gone back completely to extract to save time. The beers have been coming out phenomenal. They are coming out just as clean and flavorful as my mash brews, with much less time and effort. A few recommendations to prevent extract twang:

1) Use fresh liquid extract. Treat your LME like any perishable food item. Buy it fresh, and refrigerate it. If you can't get fresh LME, use DME. DME is more shelf-stable.

2) Do a full boil. Partial boils with late additions can work as well.

3) Shorten your boil times. You'll greatly reduce the chance of a maillard reaction from occurring, which is one of the biggest causes of off-flavors in extract brewing. Cut down your boil times in half (at least), and use more hops to compensate for the loss in IBUs. My extract pale ales and IPAs are coming out amazing because I'm adding a lot of hops in the final 15-20 minutes to bitter the beers. The increased hop amounts has also resulted in more hop flavor.

4) Use steeping grains or a mini-mash. Using some fresh grains adds character and aromas to your beer that you won't get from amber or dark extracts. Use light extracts for minimal color and flavor, and let your specialty grains do the talking.

5) Take your pot off the heat when adding the extract. LME tends to sink straight to the bottom of the pot when you add it to your water. It will get scorched if that pot is sitting on a burner. Get the pot off the heat, stir in your extract thoroughly, then return the pot to the burner.

 

[dieharduscfan]

Since my wife got pregnant, I've gone back completely to extract to save time. The beers have been coming out phenomenal. They are coming out just as clean and flavorful as my mash brews, with much less time and effort. A few recommendations to prevent extract twang:

1) Use fresh liquid extract. Treat your LME like any perishable food item. Buy it fresh, and refrigerate it. If you can't get fresh LME, use DME. DME is more shelf-stable.

2) Do a full boil. Partial boils with late additions can work as well.

3) Shorten your boil times. You'll greatly reduce the chance of a maillard reaction from occurring, which is one of the biggest causes of off-flavors in extract brewing. Cut down your boil times in half (at least), and use more hops to compensate for the loss in IBUs. My extract pale ales and IPAs are coming out amazing because I'm adding a lot of hops in the final 15-20 minutes to bitter the beers. The increased hop amounts has also resulted in more hop flavor.

4) Use steeping grains or a mini-mash. Using some fresh grains adds character and aromas to your beer that you won't get from amber or dark extracts. Use light extracts for minimal color and flavor, and let your specialty grains do the talking.

5) Take your pot off the heat when adding the extract. LME tends to sink straight to the bottom of the pot when you add it to your water. It will get scorched if that pot is sitting on a burner. Get the pot off the heat, stir in your extract thoroughly, then return the pot to the burner.

I hear everyone talking about the "twang" from extract beers. Is this the "soapy" kind of off flavor I've been experiencing on my last two brews? I've done everything right but it still comes out with the "soapy" off flavor after bottle conditioning for 2 weeks.
My next step is to go to all grain but I would like to know where this taste comes from.

 

[kombat]

"Extract twang" is very real, although its exact cause is not well understood. I experienced it to some degree or another in all of my own extract brews. It was the main reason I went to all-grain, and since then, my beers have been on a completely different level. They actually taste like beer, rather than home brew.

I know some extract beers out there have won some competitions, but all the ones I made still had that "extract twang," for whatever reason. Since going all grain, it disappeared.

 

[bbohanon]

Since my wife got pregnant, I've gone back completely to extract to save time. The beers have been coming out phenomenal. They are coming out just as clean and flavorful as my mash brews, with much less time and effort. A few recommendations to prevent extract twang:

1) Use fresh liquid extract. Treat your LME like any perishable food item. Buy it fresh, and refrigerate it. If you can't get fresh LME, use DME. DME is more shelf-stable.

2) Do a full boil. Partial boils with late additions can work as well.

3) Shorten your boil times. You'll greatly reduce the chance of a maillard reaction from occurring, which is one of the biggest causes of off-flavors in extract brewing. Cut down your boil times in half (at least), and use more hops to compensate for the loss in IBUs. My extract pale ales and IPAs are coming out amazing because I'm adding a lot of hops in the final 15-20 minutes to bitter the beers. The increased hop amounts has also resulted in more hop flavor.

4) Use steeping grains or a mini-mash. Using some fresh grains adds character and aromas to your beer that you won't get from amber or dark extracts. Use light extracts for minimal color and flavor, and let your specialty grains do the talking.

5) Take your pot off the heat when adding the extract. LME tends to sink straight to the bottom of the pot when you add it to your water. It will get scorched if that pot is sitting on a burner. Get the pot off the heat, stir in your extract thoroughly, then return the pot to the burner.

This is interesting advice..Most of these I already do such as not letting the extract scorch and the use of steeping grains..the shorter boil time and full boil/hop advice is something I can try as I usually top off on extract brews.
Gives me a reason to try an extract batch again.

 

[Woodro]

I do the same process as crookedtail. I to use extract B/C of family time constraints. My friends that A/G brew have not noticed any extract twaing in my beers as of yet. Develop a tried and true process and stick to it. I can brew a full 5 gal batch in as little as 2 1/2 hrs including cooling time and pitching yeast. I think if you were to put a extract bottle next to a A/G bottle with no label or knowledge of how it was brewed,most beer drinkers wouldn't be able to tell a difference. Some would but those folks are true beer savants. Don't over think it and have fun.

 

[CrookedTail]

I hear everyone talking about the "twang" from extract beers. Is this the "soapy" kind of off flavor I've been experiencing on my last two brews? I've done everything right but it still comes out with the "soapy" off flavor after bottle conditioning for 2 weeks.
My next step is to go to all grain but I would like to know where this taste comes from.

Extract twang is often different things to different brewers. It can be a stale or oxidized flavor. Or it can have a molasses, or licorice type of flavor. These are usually caused by maillard reactions that occur in the extract. Maillard reactions often occur when extract is sitting in warm temperatures for too long.
For instance, if your LME has been sitting on a shelf at your homebrew supply shop for a long time. Or if after purchasing LME, you don't refrigerate it. Treat your LME the same way you would treat a carton of milk. You wouldn't want to drink milk that's been sitting at room temps for a long time, would you?

To get around those issues, make sure you buy LME from a place that has a high turnaround. Online retailers sell their extract very quickly. So they are constantly getting fresh extract from the malting companies. If you buy from your LHBS, ask them how fast the turnaround is on their LME. Or if you want to be safe, just use DME, which is much more shelf-stable.

Another cause of maillard reactions come from partial boils. 2.5 gallons of a concentrated boil will create tons of these reactions. That's also why extract beers often end up being darker in color. To eliminate this issue, either do a full boil, use late extract additions, and/or do a shorter boil. If you do a shorter boil, add more hops to make up for the loss in IBUs. In pale ales and IPAs, this actually improves the hop flavor in your beers.

Any time a new brewer (and even some more experienced ones) experiences an off-flavor from an extract brew, they automatically blame the extract. This is unfortunate, and quite frankly unfair. Way more often than not the issue is the brewer's inexperience, or they are using old or bad extract, or it is simply them not knowing how to properly use the ingredient. Then they move to all-grain, where they usually start off with better equipment, better sanitization, wort chillers, full boils, etc (basically just a better overall process), and when they produce better beer they become convinced that the problem before was the extract. Use a sound process and proper ingredient handling, and you can brew extract beers that will be indistinguishable from their all-grain counterparts.

Sorry for the rant

To answer your question about a soapy flavor, make sure your extract is very fresh, and check your water. Either filter your water, or buy your water from the supermarket. I was getting soapy flavors when I was using straight tap water. It turned out to be the high chlorine content of my tap water. Find out the mineral content of your tap water. Remember, the extract already has minerals in it from the water used to produce it. Finally double check your sanitization.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[gbx]

Another cause of maillard reactions come from partial boils. 2.5 gallons of a concentrated boil will create tons of these reactions. That's also why extract beers often end up being darker in color. To eliminate this issue, either do a full boil, use late extract additions, and/or do a shorter boil. If you do a shorter boil, add more hops to make up for the loss in IBUs. In pale ales and IPAs, this actually improves the hop flavor in your beers.

I think the main reason extract beers are darker is the way the grain steeped. If you steep 8oz of chocolate malt alone in 2.5 gallons of water it will pull a lot more colour out than it would as part of a mash done at a normal water to grain ratio.

And darker than what? You can't really compare to an AG batch because you have no idea what the base malt is. Extract to all grain isn't the same as saying beers made with vienna malt are often darker than beers made with pilsner malt. Even if the extract says what the original malt was, did you add the extra colour with your partial boil or did the manufacture when they dehydrated the extract?

 

[CrookedTail]

I think the main reason extract beers are darker is the way the grain steeped. If you steep 8oz of chocolate malt alone in 2.5 gallons of water it will pull a lot more colour out than it would as part of a mash done at a normal water to grain ratio.

And darker than what? You can't really compare to an AG batch because you have no idea what the base malt is. Extract to all grain isn't the same as saying beers made with vienna malt are often darker than beers made with pilsner malt. Even if the extract says what the original malt was, did you add the extra colour with your partial boil or did the manufacture when they dehydrated the extract?

I don't steep my grains in 2.5 gallons of water. I use a separate pot for my steeping grains, and use the same water/grain ratio that I used in my mash brews. My converted extract beers are only a little darker than the grain versions. If you didn't put them side-by-side, you wouldn't even think there was a difference.

I use Northern Brewer extracts, which is really just repackaged Briess extract. Briess provides you with the base malts that they use to produce their extracts. So I know exactly what the base malt is. When I convert a recipe from all-grain, I'm steeping/mini-mashing the specialty grains, and subbing out the two-row or pilsner malt with either their Gold extract (which is made from two-row), or Pilsen (which is made from Pilsner malt). It would be unfair to compare the color (or anything else for that matter) between a beer that has a Vienna malt base vs. a beer using an extra light extract as the base. Apples and oranges.

The boil absolutely plays a huge part in the color of an extract brew. I've brewed the same extract hefe-weizen recipe, one time adding all of the extract at the beginning of the boil, and one time doing the extract late method. The difference in color was huge.

Some great info on Briess extracts:
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm

 

[chocotaco]

I use Northern Brewer extracts, which is really just repackaged Briess extract. [/URL]

Pretty sure NB makes their own LME... am I wrong?

 

[CrookedTail]

Pretty sure NB makes their own LME... am I wrong?

As far as I know, it's from Briess.

 

[bbohanon]

Extract twang is often different things to different brewers. It can be a stale or oxidized flavor. Or it can have a molasses, or licorice type of flavor. These are usually caused by maillard reactions that occur in the extract. Maillard reactions often occur when extract is sitting in warm temperatures for too long.
For instance, if your LME has been sitting on a shelf at your homebrew supply shop for a long time. Or if after purchasing LME, you don't refrigerate it. Treat your LME the same way you would treat a carton of milk. You wouldn't want to drink milk that's been sitting at room temps for a long time, would you?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

This is interesting as I have not heard this one before. In a sunny, large windowed shop where the sun hits that shelf where the LME/DME kits and bags sit and some may have been sitting there for a while(Like my LHB Shop is setup) it makes sense.
All my LHB grains are in the back where its cool and no sunlight ever hits it..Couple that with the grains being in plastic buckets and it makes even more sense.
Looks like I am going to need to test this with some mini-extract batches from the LHB and different sources(NB/MWest, etc).
Good stuff and may help me track down the elusive "twang" source. I have never been able to nail it down as to the "why" of it.
:rockin:

 

[BigFloyd]

Pretty sure NB makes their own LME... am I wrong?

It would be a major undertaking for them to produce their own LME. I'm also thinking that they buy in large bulk from Briess and repackage it for their kits and to sell "ala carte".

 

[kombat]

All my LHB grains are in the back where its cool and no sunlight ever hits it..Couple that with the grains being in plastic buckets and it makes even more sense.

I don't think sunlight hitting the grains has anything to do with oxidation. As I understood it, sunlight oxidation in beer ("skunking") is the result of UV rays (typically sunlight) oxidizing the hop oils, rather than anything supplied by the grains. I believe you could store your grains in direct sunlight right up until brew day, but as long as you protect the hops and the post-hopping wort/beer from sunlight and oxygen, you will minimize oxidation off flavours.

 

[40watt]

Grains will go stale...
They must be dry, but cool. Direct sunlight is not cool.
Even though they are kilned, they still do have a moisture content. They can become too dry. I forgot the word that the guy from Brides used to describe the texture and taste, but "stale" is accurate enough.

 

[kombat]

Yes, you're right, grains can absolutely go stale, particularly after they've been milled. I just wanted to clarify that that's not the same thing as the "skunking" that occurs when pre-hopped LME (or wort or beer) is exposed to UV rays.

 

[40watt]

Very true. Those two things are in no way related.

 

[StLouBrew]

Extract twang is often different things to different brewers. It can be a stale or oxidized flavor. Or it can have a molasses, or licorice type of flavor. These are usually caused by maillard reactions that occur in the extract. Maillard reactions often occur when extract is sitting in warm temperatures for too long.
For instance, if your LME has been sitting on a shelf at your homebrew supply shop for a long time. Or if after purchasing LME, you don't refrigerate it. Treat your LME the same way you would treat a carton of milk. You wouldn't want to drink milk that's been sitting at room temps for a long time, would you?

So I've typically plunked my container of LME in HOT water for about 20 min priort to adding it to the brew kettle, simply to make it easier to get most of the liquid out of the containter. Might this be an issue?

Some of my brews (all of them extract) have had a slight clovish.. yeah, maybe licorice note to them. Based on what CrookedTail has offered here, the next batch, I'm going to go with as large of an amount of water for the boil as I think I can get away with w/o risking a boil over.

Cheers

 

[stonecutter2]

I do extract brews for IPA's, and with very short boil times. I make the 15 minute Cascade Pale Ale recipe that's on the boards here (I change up the hops), and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary, taste-wise, compared to my all grain recipes.

I think just as there could be an extract note, I find that all grain can sometimes have a "grain twang" that gradually ages out. Probably just my mash technique that creates that (I don't have any mash equipment, just a pot and a strainer...like BIAB without a bag, basically).

I did just try making a 15 minute Imperial IPA...based on what CrookedTail just said about concentrations of extract, I guess I'll see what that tastes like when it's done. It should taste like hops mostly - I used a lot with that short boil to hit 108 IBU's or so.

 

[CrookedTail]

So I've typically plunked my container of LME in HOT water for about 20 min priort to adding it to the brew kettle, simply to make it easier to get most of the liquid out of the containter. Might this be an issue?

Some of my brews (all of them extract) have had a slight clovish.. yeah, maybe licorice note to them. Based on what CrookedTail has offered here, the next batch, I'm going to go with as large of an amount of water for the boil as I think I can get away with w/o risking a boil over.

Cheers

I do the same thing to get my extract out of the container. I'm talking about if the extract sits in warm temps for weeks or even months.