extract kolsch or Gose to brew , help me a little with my options. asap please

[Soulshine2]

Over the past winter I had a few kits in the basket and the kolsch my wife ordered without me looking closer at what it was before actually ordering it, extract, its a NB kit. I have been kicking the idea around of doing something with these 7 lbs of blackberries Id picked over the last month. I also have the bag (15oz left)of flor de jamaica (dried Hibiscus flowers). AND in the last week I had the spur of the moment liquor store purchase of both kiwi kolsch and a passionfruit kolsch beers which I thought were amazing . I sometimes drink one of those Mama Chia energy drinks that just happen to be blackberry hibiscus and its really tasty. So, I think Id like to use the extract Kolsch kit , maybe do a mini mash of some sort of malts and make a blackberry hibiscus kolsch but I dont want sweet, I want it tart and not overly hoppy. what grain malts would you put with this? what hop would you put with it? I have Herkules and an Australian Wakatu hops on hand, might have a couple hallertauers left, also Citra and a Mosaic and German Spalt.
option- I also still have a complete AG ingredient (and harvested yeast) for another Gose .Same blackberry hibiscus . Wondering if I should put some lime juice/zest in it too.
(sidenote- Has anyone tried the Seaquench from Dogfishhead?? wow, I couldnt stop drinking it. )
My wifes 2 aunts are coming end of August and I'd like to have it done by then.
I've also been working on the pool side bar. Yesterday I put up some reclaimed barnwood that my son took down from his shed . Looks nice so far.
I need to brew , from a week ago Friday to this past Saturday I was working 10 and mostly 12 hrs a day.

I solved it by logic. I already have everything to make another Gose , so im doing a blackberry hibiscus with lime juice and zest, add coriander and sea salt. Im going to let it sour up a couple days this time so its nice and tart. Got a couple months of summer and pool time left to enjoy it.

Ill do a straight kolsch with a mini mash as a separate brew just to have a clean beer on hand.
Im anyone read the post but didn't reply because they didnt know how to tell me,or make the decision for me, i fully understand.

 

[Soulshine2]

ahhhh, crisis before brew day...hops .. I have Citra which has the grapefruit, gooseberry,tart lime notes . but, how much (looking at a 5 gallon batch), I have 2 oz. This is definitely going to be a Blackberry(1#/gallon) hibiscus (1 oz in 8 oz water tea added at flameout) Gose with all the above mentioned, (4)lime juice and zest,1 oz coriander and 1 oz sea salt. A Gose usually has a muted hop to let the fruit come forward. BUT, Id like this to be a little shy on the nearly "pucker you up" tartness without going overboard. Lick smacking is the best way I could describe it.
I COULD brew up 6 gallons, reserve 1 gallon before hop addition to tame the 2 oz of Citra if I happen to overdo it.
My sons watermelon gose isnt all that tart at all but its still a good beer, I wasnt instructed to let it sour before pitching. Might have been a big difference.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

How are you souring? If you add 2oz of Citra, Lactobacillus won't be able to do it's thing.

 

[Soulshine2]

How are you souring? If you add 2oz of Citra, Lactobacillus won't be able to do it's thing.

Thanks for replying.
I have acidulated malt. I'm holding off on this brew until I can get a better understanding of the souring process. With A.M. do I need the lacto too or just one? Might be visiting a healthfood/ LHBS tomorrow.
So , should I brew it with the A.M. but no hops , let it sour a couple days then go back to boil and add the hops?

 

[Jag75]

Soulshine . Do a post sour . It's easy and is less likely to get a contamination.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/making-a-sour.665525/

 

[S-Met]

Thanks for replying.
I have acidulated malt. I'm holding off on this brew until I can get a better understanding of the souring process. With A.M. do I need the lacto too or just one? Might be visiting a healthfood/ LHBS tomorrow.
So , should I brew it with the A.M. but no hops , let it sour a couple days then go back to boil and add the hops?

Sea quench is delicious on a hot day.
While I have only done one, Goodbelly shot or juice was really easy and mostly idiot-resistant L-plant strain.
https://goodbelly.com/
I did an extract kettle sour. Boiled h2o and cut heat then mixed in lme. Cooled to about 100 and poured in a quart of berry goodbelly. Let it sit 2-3 days until ph was lower 3s. (3.3 I think).
Brought back to near boil ~190 and tossed .5oz willamette, cooled and added 4lb of frozen mixed berries.

Keg was drained on day 2 of a 3day weekend. As a 1st time experimental, I wouldn't hesitate to do again. And talk about an easy (almost)no boil process.

 

[Soulshine2]

Soulshine . Do a post sour . It's easy and is less likely to get a contamination.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/making-a-sour.665525/

ok, I read it and replied to a few of your posts in it.
I'm confused now.
I already have acidulated malt that I used in the watermelon Gose. I planned on using it in this blackberry gose. Do I still need to add lacto? and with that... you added a live culture yogurt to yours ??? how much and when and how long ?
so , let me get this straight-
1-brew the recipe without hops
2-quick & short (15 min) boil to sanitize
3- cool to 90ish and add the souring agent(live culture Yogurt???)
4- allow to sour 2-3 days
5?- continue the brew as usual to stop the souring process,boil for the hop addition.
6-pitch yeast ,etc.

am I understanding this right?

 

[Jag75]

I didnt do the kettle sour. I did the post as recommended by RPHguy.

Mashed normal , then boiled . Didnt use hops . Cooled to pitching temp then pitched yeast . 2 days later I pitched goodbellys juice . Was blueberry Acai. Think 1 qt. When fermented out I racked onto 5lbs of blueberries. Then I dry hopped with .5 oz of Azacca.

 

[Soulshine2]

I didnt do the kettle sour. I did the post as recommended by RPHguy.

Mashed normal , then boiled . Didnt use hops . Cooled to pitching temp then pitched yeast . 2 days later I pitched goodbellys juice . Was blueberry Acai. Think 1 qt. When fermented out I racked onto 5lbs of blueberries. Then I dry hopped with .5 oz of Azacca.

yeah, i was kinda trying to follow yours in the process of reading.
so after the goodbellys ,you didnt boil it again to stop the souring? just the dry hop?
Heres my other question, do I use the acidulated malt still?

 

[Jag75]

I boiled for 60 min after the mash like normal. From what was explained is the dry hops stop lacto from souring more . No acidulated malt . 7# 2 row and 3 # White wheat.

I was planning on using a different yeast then I did . Wanted wlp644 but they were out so I went with us05 .

 

[Soulshine2]

I boiled for 60 min after the mash like normal. From what was explained is the dry hops stop lacto from souring more . No acidulated malt . 7# 2 row and 3 # White wheat.

I was planning on using a different yeast then I did . Wanted wlp644 but they were out so I went with us05 .

Thanks, I'll let you know what happens. Hopefully a visit to the LHBS tomorrow. wife has a dr appt up that way.

 

[Jag75]

The owner at my LHBS was blown away at it . Everyone who's tried it said it's one of the best they've had. You wont be disappointed.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Just to clarify a few things - it looks like @Soulshine2 was planning to use a high percentage of acid malt for the Gose rather than a souring bacteria. @Jag75 is talking about co-pitching Yeast with Lacto (as being beneficial over kettle souring).

Using the acid malt method, you can use whatever hops you want, whenever you want in the boil. I can't say what the product is like - I haven't tried it (or using lactic acid directly added to wort/beer to get the acidity of a Gose).

Using the Co-pitch (often called 'reverse kettle sour') you can't use any hops (assuming that Lactobacillus plantarum is used) until the beer is soured enough - hops will stop the souring. I really like this method (much more yeast expression compared with kettle souring), but you're really limited to dry hopping, or adding a 'hop tea' if you want bitterness. It really doesn't need bitterness though. I haven't tried dry hopping a batch yet, but have added mandarin and orange zest which was fantastic. If you want to dry hop using this method, I'd strongly suggest splitting the batch so you get to appreciate some of the goodness of the straight batch. If dryhopping with Citra, try going quite light on to start with - a gram per liter (about two thirds of an ounce for 5 gallons) would be plenty IMO (but I'm not a hop head!).

@Jag75 - keep an eye out for some WLP644 - it is SO good in these sours!

 

[RPh_Guy]

adding a 'hop tea' if you want bitterness. It really doesn't need bitterness though.

The solubility limit of alpha acids (about 100 IBU) drastically limits the bitterness added by a hop tea.

For example a 0.5 L tea at maximum bitterness added to 5 gal (29 L) contributes less than 3 IBU, a negligible amount, like dry hopping.

The flavor from hop tea boiled 5-10min added post-fermentation is amazing!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The solubility limit of alpha acids (about 100 IBU) drastically limits the bitterness added by a hop tea.

According to other discussions I've read, that's debatable. One school of thought is as you say, the other is that the 100IBU limit is only our perception of bitterness, but the actual bitterness is much higher (proponents say the bitterness once added to the main batch is much higher than the 100IBUs would provide). I haven't tried it (and don't plan to) and haven't read any scientific studies either way so I don't have an opinion.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Well, having used hop tea a couple times, I can tell you it doesn't add significant bitterness.