Experiment idea... No boil AG beer???

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mrkeeg said:
Not a nay-sayer... DO this experiment and let us know!

Just came across something to consider or put in your report for interest. From Fix's "principles of brewing science"

"[calcium ions] continue to interact with malt phosphate during wort boiling ... the primary reason that wort pH decreases in the kettle boil."

No idea what that might do to the final beer... leave it at a higher pH? So what?
Click to expand...

I've got a batch of ph strips that I haven't used yet... might have to break them out and see what happens.

I have a brew day planned for Saturday.... Got a friend doing his first batch of extract while I try an ESB for the experiment, then another batch of my pecan brown and a blonde for the War Department. Should be a big day.. pork shoulder on the smoker and cleaning out the pipeline. Man, I need to brew more.
 
RedLight_Brewing said:
There have been late addition IPA recipes on here before, where you didn't add any hops until 20 min. Sure, you needed 3 or 4 times the amount of hops to get the bitterness you needed in an IPA, but you also got massive flavor and aroma.

I'd be interested in trying this with only a 20 min boil. A nice experiment would be to make the same recipe, boil one 60 min, boil the other 20 min. If this would turn out a good product, it would make a convenient house IPA.
Click to expand...

I may consider this for Friday's brew. Thinking out loud...
Collect 13 gal wort in kettle, stir, drain 6.5 to bottling bucket and set aside, complete 15 min boil with chiller in wort to sanitize, move chiller to primary bucket, gently drain kettle into primary and start chiller.
Then drain wort from bottling bucket into kettle and start 1 hour boil. etc.

I will have to adjust the preboil volumes to end @ 5.5 gal to primary and that will affect my gravity between the 2 batches.

Any ideas on how to end with the same gravity short of adding water to the longer boil batch?

Bull
 
I should only have to adjust the bittering hop amount to achieve the same IBU's

I boil off about 1.5 gal per hour in my kettle, so I'll need 7 gal in my 1 hour boil and 6.17 gal in my 15 min boil.

......
 
If I collect 13.2 gal wort @ 1.051
1 hour boil looks like this 51x7=357/5.5= 64.9 or 1.065 OG
15 min boil looks like this 51x6.2=316.2/5.5= 57.4 or 1.0574 OG

So I'll need to add just over 1# DME to the short boil

Someone please check my math.
 
Adding water to the longer boil seems like it would make more sense. That math should be easy.
 
bullinachinashop said:
If I collect 13.2 gal wort @ 1.051
1 hour boil looks like this 51x7=357/5.5= 64.9 or 1.065 OG
15 min boil looks like this 51x6.2=316.2/5.5= 57.4 or 1.0574 OG

So I'll need to add just over 1# DME to the short boil

Someone please check my math.
Click to expand...

Will you really boil off .7 gallons in 15 minutes? Seems like an awful lot. (6.2-5.5=.7)

To continue the math - 1.5gallons lost in an hour would roughly equate to .375 gallons in 15 minutes
51*5.875=299.6/5.5=54.5 or 1.055ish guess that's close.
 
Way out there but not entirely off the wall -- Since ONE of the reasons for boil is volume reduction (well, not a major reason but you get my meaning), why not consider throwing vacuum into the equation? "Boil" occurs at significantly lower temperatures and, while this information comes from studying fuel ethanol production I am NOT promoting anything to do with distillation, vacuum distillation significantly reduces energy input. The drawback is increased up-front costs, but we already thoroughly know that argument from the standpoint of going AG (one-time expense; brewing more reduces the per-run cost etc.). While this may not answer the hops isomerization issue, I think that was already well covered early on in this thread with using hop oil. Dry-hopping would also be useful. Also, I know several local guys that use vacuum for producing maple syrup and they realize some huge energy savings. Other local guys use old Navy desalination/RO (sp?) equipment to remove the water from the sap. Both groups produce great maple syrup, both use a great deal less energy.

Take it for what it's worth, I have no idea if it'd be useful.

- Tim the Yeast Pimp
 
How do you vent steam under a vacuum (unless it is a constant run type vacuum pump)? I would think that you might have a problem with lighter beers that need a long boil to drive off all the DMS and precursors, but barring that it sounds like an interesting idea.
 
So tomorrow is the day. Here is an overview of what I will be doing.
6.8 gallons of water to 158 degrees

Recipe used: ESB
10lbs British Pale
10oz Crystal 60
4oz Biscuit Malt
4oz Crystal 120

Mash hopping
1.5oz EKG 60min
.25oz EKG 20min
.25oz Fuggles 20min
.25oz EKG 5min
.25oz Fuggles 5min

Mash 154 for 60 minutes
ramp to 170 for 10 minutes and drain through cfc to fermenter

5 minutes CO2 scrub to remove DMS

aerate, pitch 1pkg S-04

Primary 21 days

dry hop .5oz ekg, .5oz fuggles last 7 days

keg, force carb 2.0 vol

****I am hoping that hop utilization will be encouraged by no sparge continuous recirc. The 154 degree water and movement of recirculation will wash AA from hops.*****

Any last minute suggestions? Going to LHBS at 10am tomorrow.
 
You might be able to get good isomerization of AA from hops faster by using a small pressure cooker and increasing the pH of the hop water slightly. The pressure would increase the speed of the boil and hopefully utilization of hops. As I recall you get higher hop utilization out of a slightly higher pH also.

I am not sure how much of a increase you will get. It may not be worth it. Though if it did work it would be a great way for how brewers to make dilute hop extract at home. It should store for a while without too much degradation. If I had a way of testing AA's I would try it out.
 
SUCCESS! Brew completed...

Tips for anyone trying this.. Use whole hops, not pellets. The hop pellets created a film across the grain bed and I had problems with stuck recirc.

All in all it went very well. The after the mash I pumped the wort straight from MLT through my CFC with a prechiller sitting in ice. Wort came out at 58 degrees, I actually had to let it sit and warm up before I pitched. 5.25 gallons at 1.0535

I scrubbed DMS with CO2 using a coil of soft copper tubing with 1/16th holes drilled in it. I will taste again before kegging and possibly scrub again if needed. You could smell it coming out for a minute or so then it died off.

I think I will do 2 week in primary, with dry hops during 2nd week and then transfer to secondary and maybe add gelatin if its needs clearing - Im not sure how well irish moss works in the mash.

So now the waiting begins.
 
BrewSpook said:
Im not sure how well irish moss works in the mash.
Click to expand...
I put Irish moss in the HDPE container I use for no-chills. Its equal to about 20min of utilization.... Anyway, have you thought of no-chilling this one? 170 right into an HDPE container, let it chill, then scrub with CO2? Oh man the BEER GODs are angry with this one! POL where the hell are you!!!!!!!! We need you right now!!!!
 
kanzimonson said:
I really want to believe that the mash pasteurizes the wort but I'm just not 100% sure. Therefore, I think boiling for 10 minutes is kinda necessary.

And with no boil, do you think there might be problems with haze because you don't get a hot break?

And finally, I don't think your hop method will get the bitterness required. I don't know the exact minimum temp for isomerization to occur, but I believe it's in the 170s.
Click to expand...
Both hot break and cold break are complete BS. Read some threads on no-chills. Fear and hate propagated by the LHBS
 
Its bubbling away really well now. The sample I tasted going into primary was good... lacking on bitterness, but then again its hard to tell at that point. Im guna dry hop the hell out of it and see, but for now its looking good.

Can you imagine being able to cut AG batch time down to 1hr... Id brew everyday
 
Well folks I popped her open today to dry.hop, and I took a sample. I was a litle dissapointed with the bitterness, but it is there. Then again - its not done fermenting yet (only 7 days in)

beautiful color though and it tasted pretty good. will give it 1 week - 10 days with dry hops - transfer to secondary and clear with gelatin, then keg.

So far - I am pleased. next time whole cone hops and more of them.
 
Ok folks... I need some input. thinking about my options if the bitterness is still not there when the beer finishes up. not saying that I am going to do anything, but I am just exploring those options now so I can be ready when the time comes.

What I am thinking is taking 1oz of EKG and boiling with 1.5qt water and a little DME for an hour. This should extract the bitterness from the hops and keep the liquid addition to a minimum. I can add this to the beer 3 or 4 days prior to clearing with gelatin.

Has anyone tried doing something like this?
 
I did that with a red ale that I must have mis-measured hops with. Bitterness was almost non-existent. I did a 45 minute boil of plain water (.25 gallon or so) adding hops at the beginning, mid-way, and flame out, chilled it and added it to the keg. It completely balanced the beer about, adding bitterness and flavor.
 
JoMarky said:
I did that with a red ale that I must have mis-measured hops with. Bitterness was almost non-existent. I did a 45 minute boil of plain water (.25 gallon or so) adding hops at the beginning, mid-way, and flame out, chilled it and added it to the keg. It completely balanced the beer about, adding bitterness and flavor.
Click to expand...

Awesome... That was exactly what I was hoping for. I think the flavor and aroma will be there, but the bitterness is what I am afraid might be missing post fermentation.

Thanks JoMarky!
 
I have seen some recipes in NB extract kits call for hop teas as well. I think these are mainly to improve hop utilization when you are doing a partial boil with a big beer, since the gravity of the wort is double your target... So if you are brewing a 1.070 beer, you need a 1.14 wort and that is terrible for hop utilization. Let me give you an example:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DIPA.pdf
 
IamNash said:
I have seen some recipes in NB extract kits call for hop teas as well. I think these are mainly to improve hop utilization when you are doing a partial boil with a big beer, since the gravity of the wort is double your target... So if you are brewing a 1.070 beer, you need a 1.14 wort and that is terrible for hop utilization. Let me give you an example:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DIPA.pdf
Click to expand...

Interesting. I took another sample yesterday and I think I am definitely going to have to do this for the bitterness, it just isn't coming through at all. Need to see if I've got an oz of EKG and maybe I will do it tomorrow so it will sit with the wort for a few days before I clear it and keg it.

Still a small boil compared to a large boil will still be faster and use WAY less energy. Barring any major complications in the next week I think we have a winner.
 
Brewspook, if you're still working on this and are going to boil more hops to increase the bitterness, consider pulling some of the beer itself and boiling hops in it for 15 min or so and then add it back to the batch. This will provide some acidity to minimize the chances of introducing astringency that you might get from using water alone; plus you won't be watering down your beer.
I had good success with this, but only applied it to a 1/2 batch of beer (i.e. the keg was half done and I was tired of underbittered beer). You're limited to how many IBUs you can get in there by the small volume of beer you boil, but it will work.
 
BuzzCraft said:
Brewspook, if you're still working on this and are going to boil more hops to increase the bitterness, consider pulling some of the beer itself and boiling hops in it for 15 min or so and then add it back to the batch. This will provide some acidity to minimize the chances of introducing astringency that you might get from using water alone; plus you won't be watering down your beer.
I had good success with this, but only applied it to a 1/2 batch of beer (i.e. the keg was half done and I was tired of underbittered beer). You're limited to how many IBUs you can get in there by the small volume of beer you boil, but it will work.
Click to expand...

Thanks Buzz, thats a really good idea. I wonder if I pull a qt or 2 out and boiled with .5oz of magnum for 60 min, since its a high AA clean bittering hop, if that would give me the bite I am looking or. The hop flavor and aroma are definitely there, its just not very bitter.

When you did that, did you just pull it and then add it right back to the keg? I would imagine it would need a shake or two to get it all mixed back in.

Finals next week, plan on kegging this bad boy up mid week after my hardest finals are over. Force carb and ready to drink by the weekend.

P.S. I need more kegs :)
 
Exactly, pulled a quart out boiled and poured it back in. You could shake, but it will diffuse out fairly quickly, so I think it would be unnecessary. As far as the hops to use, you will saturate the IBUs you can get in that small volume pretty quickly with a small amount of hops. If you have Beersmith or something similar, you can get the theoretic IBUs for the volume you are boiling for a given duration with a given amount of hops/AAs.

If you accept the conventional wisdom that IBUs saturate at 100, I think the following will be true. With a 1 quart boil, you get 25 IBUs/gallon, so will bump up a 5 gallon batch by 5 IBUs. Double to a 2 quart boil and you bump up the batch by 10, which is probably more desirable in your situation.

The only downside I can think of is that you are going to be dropping your alcohol content of your batch, because it will be boiling alcohol out of the beer. I personally wouldn't worry about this, cause you're looking to make it more palatable.

Oh, and don't forget to minimize aeration of your boiled beer when you're straining the hops out. a hop bag would be a good idea.

Good luck with it and if you do this, please report how it changes the character of your beer.
 
Alright Buzz,

since you have already distracted me from studying for finals with this :)

Here is what I came up with in beersmith. let me know if you think I am doing this right.

If I set batch size to 5 gallons, boil size to .5 gallons (w/gravity @ 1.014) after 60 minutes. 1 oz of Magnum will merit me an addition of 23.6 IBUs to the batch. Which will be good, because there is some there, and I was shooting for right around 35-40IBUs originally.

Thoughts?
 
You approach makes sense on the surface and would seem to be correct except for the fact that there is supposed to be a saturation limit of around 100 IBUs in beer. I've heard others say that it's really just that your palate can't discriminate more than that, but I think the former is held to be more accurate.

So, assuming a 100 IBU saturation limit, you can't get more than 100 IBUs in 0.5 gallons of wort. You then distribute this amount over your 5 gallon batch and end up with an extra 10 IBUs for the entire batch. I think this is closer to the truth.

The good news is that you don't have to boil for 60 minutes. If you plug into Beersmith a 0.5 gallon batch and 0.5 gallon boil volume, you'll see that you will get to way over 100 IBUs within 15 minutes. So, I'd go with 0.5 Magnum for 15 minutes in 0.5 gallons and expect a 10 IBU bump in your batch. Should be a perceptible improvement, but perhaps not as high as you would like.

Hope that makes sense. And hopefully someone else will chime in if my facts/assumptions are wrong, but I believe they are correct.
 
Following you guys and interested in the results.

Some thoughts...

Couldn't you boil the beer covered or in a pressure cooker and not lose near as much alcohol? The pressure cooker could also allow for quicker isomerization with the higher temps. You could also make the boil the least vigorous as possible to minimize boil off.

Also, I believe BuzzCraft's calculations are correct on the IBU of the hop concentrate, but a thought I had was, how do they get the "Hop Shot" or concentrated bitterness to hold more IBUs than that? It seems we should be able to replicate that technique.
 
DKershner said:
Couldn't you boil the beer covered or in a pressure cooker and not lose near as much alcohol? The pressure cooker could also allow for quicker isomerization with the higher temps. You could also make the boil the least vigorous as possible to minimize boil off.

Also, I believe BuzzCraft's calculations are correct on the IBU of the hop concentrate, but a thought I had was, how do they get the "Hop Shot" or concentrated bitterness to hold more IBUs than that? It seems we should be able to replicate that technique.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think what I will end up doing is putting it on the stovetop and bring it to a boil, then reduce to a slow boil covered for 15-30 minutes to conserve energy (which was the point of this experiment anyway)

Yeah I have heard that about the maximum IBUs... being a math guy, I tend to lean more towards the perception is the limiting factor. I figure at this point the beer is good from the samples I have tasted, extra bitterness will only make it better, so whatever happens happens. I wish there was a way at home to test IBUs.... hmmm
I will have to take this into account before I try experiment #2.
 
Due to a very poor hop storage technique, my house pale came out like a blonde ale I used BS to calculate the aa lost and what I would need to correct the IBU of the brew. Turns out 1/2oz cascade and 1/2oz williamette were the required amount. I boiled them for 60min in about a quart of water, chilled and separated the hop material as best I could. I tasted the hop tea and it make my teeth tingle. I poured the tea into the corney and wammo the pale ale was back.
 
Based on the experiment I'm doing with the short boil vs. long boil, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/short-vs-long-boil-experiment-206981/
I would boil the hops longer and uncovered to drive off the flavor and aroma compounds.
At bottling in this experiment, I'm getting more of the hop flavor from the bittering hop that was only boiled for 15 min. I almost want to say grassy but that's not it.
So, I would boil for longer or in water like McCuckerson stated above.
Bull
 
Ok so here is what I did this morning. 1.5 qt of beer boiled for 60 minutes with 15g of magnum hops. Man did it smell nasty :) I have to air out the house before SWMBO gets home. after the boil I let it cool and added some gelatin to clear it out. One more week and I will keg this bad boy up. Keep your fingers crossed
 

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