ETOH calculation question

[toddrod]

Here is my question.

I make my muscadine wine by first crushing the fruit and fermenting on the skins for 4-5 days (no sugar added).

Then I strain off the juice and press out the juice from the skins and then add sugar to get my final starting SG.

For instance I have been checking to SG at the end of fermentation and I am coming out with low ETOH%.

Example -

Starting SG 1.125
Finshing SG are 1.038 and 1.050 using EC-1118 yeast (has ETOH tolerance to 18%)

If my math is right that is 11.3% and 9.8%. Should I be taking the SG at the start with the pure juice and take a SG again before I add the sugar, and figure out ETOH there, and then do it again after I add the sugar and at end of fermention to get a total ETOH number?

 

[DoctorCAD]

If you are taking the SG "after" fermentation of the juice, that isn't a true reading.

5 days of fermenting could easily take the SG down below 1, than you are adding sugar (which, by the way, is what muscadines have TOO much of already IMO) to artificially raise the SG way back up.

I'd bet you are hitting over 15%. Does it taste hot?

 

[toddrod]

Yes it does have a hot taste which was making me question my calculations. As for as the muscadines having to much sugar, I make it buy using 1.75g juice and then adding water to make 5 gallons. So I have to add sugar back to get it where I like it.

 

[CampFireWine]

I think you would need more fruit to make that high of % alcohol. The stronger ABV it is, the more juice molecules is needed for it to bind with. With the 1.75 to 5 ratio is only 35% juice. I just think it is too light of body to crank it up. The starting and stopping and starting and stopping again isn't good for the flavor either. You really should add the sugar in the beginning because it is probably done dried out by 5 days when you rack it.

 

[toddrod]

By the time I add at least 11-12lbs of sugar to the juice then add water to make 5 gallons, I am only adding about 2 gallons of water. Besides, a starting SG of 1.125 is plenty enough to get the ABV% up.

 

[CampFireWine]

....fermenting on the skins for 4-5 days (no sugar added)...using EC-1118 yeast....

If the yeast is like what I use, it will be dry by the time you add the sugar, and a lot of yeast will be dead by then.

When you get into ABV as high as what I do, 20% range, you really don't want to add any water. If you can add apple juice or white-grape to it, it would be more palatable. That or change yeast and keep it down to ~10% ABV

 

[Justibone]

12 lbs. of sugar = 110 points. You're only getting 15 points from the grapes, so either there are only like, 12 grapes in there, or they are fermenting out prematurely.

 

[toddrod]

Please remember that I am adding the sugar after grapes and skins have fermented for 4-5 days. I know that this is not normal wine making procedure but the wine does turn out very flavorful and after 1 yr of aging it the ETOH harshness mellows out alot. The straight grape juice SG was about 1.05 (IIRC but I maybe wrong) and I forgot to take it before adding the sugar.

 

[toddrod]

If the yeast is like what I use, it will be dry by the time you add the sugar, and a lot of yeast will be dead by then.

When you get into ABV as high as what I do, 20% range, you really don't want to add any water. If you can add apple juice or white-grape to it, it would be more palatable. That or change yeast and keep it down to ~10% ABV

Adding the grape juice instead of water is something I did not even think about trying, but I will next year for sure.

I could use straight juice, but I would have to add carbonate to reduce the acid level as my juice tested out at 1.25% tartaric. I do not like the commercial muscadine wine made with straight juice.

 

[Justibone]

If you are starting with 50 points, fermenting down to 1.015, then adding 110 points with cane sugar, your total ABV should be calculated from 1.125 + .035 = 1.160 OG. Your yeast aren't pooping out as soon as you think.

If your wine ages a while, and you measure the gravity after months and months, does it dry out even further, down to the 1.010-1.005 range? Converting 120 total points to alcohol is a pretty high ABV, so I wouldn't fault your yeast, I think.

Also to get ABV% above 15% it does take some extra care, staged additions, etc. So, don't fault your yeast is all I'm saying. They seem to be working plenty hard, and if you are getting wine you enjoy, what's the problem?

 

[Gibbs]

Don't measure the Brix after it has been fermenting even one day. It will throw off the original SG or what we use at the winery, Brix. 22.5 brix will tranlsate roughly to 11.5% EtOH (alcohol). Depending on the yeast you use. Some yeasts are better at fructose conversion than other. Fruit pulp has nothing to do with alcohol. Only what is fermentable sugar and how dry it goes. Get a clinitest kit and test for reducing (residual) sugar after fermentation and after tasting it to see if it went dry.

 

[Yooper]

If the yeast is like what I use, it will be dry by the time you add the sugar, and a lot of yeast will be dead by then.

When you get into ABV as high as what I do, 20% range, you really don't want to add any water. If you can add apple juice or white-grape to it, it would be more palatable. That or change yeast and keep it down to ~10% ABV

The yeast won't be dead after beginning to ferment the must. That's ridiculous. Yeast may go dormant after fermentation, but certainly not in just 5 days. You won't have any problems with autolysis either in just a few days. Don't worry about "dead yeast"- it won't happen.

Adding water is fine, particularly with a highly acidic grape or fruit. In order to dilute the acidic must, water is commonly added along with sugar to add fermentables. I know that muscadines are "musky" flavored and not great on their own. I make catawba grape wine, which is a different variety but they are terribly acidic as well so I add water and sugar to get to a good OG as well as keep the wine from being too acidic. If you want better body, you can add some raisins or some Winexpert grape concentrate.

In this case, some simple math can help you figure the ABV. Take the OG of the original must. Then, take the SG of the wine before you add the sugar and water. Take the SG after you add the sugar and water, and the difference is added to the OG, along with the increase in volume. Take the FG when it's done, and some very simple calculations can give you the ABV%.

 

[CampFireWine]

The active cycle of the yeast I use us only 5 to 7 days so if it's not all together at the start, then it's not going to work right.

He was short on fruit, so the juice instead of water would help to make up for it.

 

[Justibone]

The active cycle of the yeast I use us only 5 to 7 days so if it's not all together at the start, then it's not going to work right.

You use freaky yeast, that's how you get 20% in 2 weeks.

 

[CampFireWine]

You use freaky yeast, that's how you get 20% in 2 weeks.

True, but isn't that ec-1118 about the same or no? I have heard it mentioned a time or two. You know I use the turbo yeast.

 

[Yooper]

True, but isn't that ec-1118 about the same or no? I have heard it mentioned a time or two. You know I use the turbo yeast.

No. EC-1118 is a champagne yeast strain that doesn't "die" when the fermentables run low. It's a low foaming very attenuative yeast strain that can be pushed to 18%+/- in the right conditions.

I like to use it in crabapple wine. I ferment out the crabapples, press and then add water and sugar. After that, at the next two or three rackings I add 1/2 cup or so of honey (per 5 gallon carboy) until I get an off-dry crabapple wine. As long as you rack off of the lees every 45-60 days or so, you get a beautifully neutral flavor from the yeast and the yeast certainly isn't dead.

 

[CampFireWine]

That isn't even close to what I use Yooper. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Justibone]

I suspect that the turbo yeast is more than just yeast, it's packed with activators and other stuff. If it works the way I think, it's a pretty awesome set-up.

Have you ever washed the turbo yeast and re-used them? I think that would go a long way to understanding what exactly is going on.

 

[CampFireWine]

The pack does have what you mentioned. I have never had to add nutrient or so much as start a culture. There is more then just yeast in the pack. Thats for sure. The only touchy thing about it is that you have to warm the fermenter up to 75F or so to get it going. I have to use a brew belt to warm the primary up before pitching the yeast pack. I store the packs in the fridge for sever months at a time without no noticeable problem.

I am thinking I may have racked the primary once and filled it back up with fresh juice and reran it once. I didn't really pay attention to the difference though.

Here is the description of it

LIQUOR QUIK SuperYeast™ X-Press" is the new generation (2004) high alcohol turbo that can produce 25 liters (6.5 U.S. Gallons) of 20% alcohol base in as little as 5 days. The new X-Press is completely stackable, which means that you can ferment multiple packs at a time, as long as the sugar, water, and temperature is kept constant. It works by fermentation of a special distiller’s yeast and complex blend of nutrients and vitamins. View the instructions, including ways to further increase your alcohol

 

[Gibbs]

EC-1118 by Lalvin is a good yeast for sparkling for white wines you want to go dry. I work at Fenn Valley Vineyards in the SW part of Michigan as the Assoaicate Winemaker. I inoculate all the juice for our winemaking and it is one to use to assure that the white wine does go dry. We have used it in dry whites, as well as some of the sparkling Traminette, Riesling and our Cuvee of Chardonnay & Pinot noir. It is also know as, and much cheaper to buy from Presque Isle wine cellars as Premier Cuvee' AKA PDM.

Also another yeast that works wonderful for sparkling wines and one we found works better for some dry whites is Vin-13 yeast. It is not so fast fermenting, but has the ability to form esters and bring out the fruit forward characteristis of the white juice such as Seyval or Vidal. We have even fermentd Riesling on Vin-13 to make the Dry Riesling.
http://www.lalvinyeast.com/EC1118.asp