Ethics Thread

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Ahhh the age old ethics question. Ethical behavior varies greatly between countries, region, states, time of day, specific location, age, time of year, gender, race, religion, creed etc... There billions of variables that determine what is and what is not ethical.

If ethical behavior could be measured, there would be no need for laws, religion, perhaps not even government. Whenever a person reached a certain point on the ethics-o-meter we would just lock them up.
 
I'm guessing that, unless your email started with "HEY, You're Indian, and that's really the only feature that defines you, so I figured you'd be interested about this other person that is now going to be at least somewhat defined by their Indian heritage..." then you're fine. Who wouldn't be interested to learn something new about their culture and a famous individual that is somehow connected?
 
Ugh. Had the dreaded "is she pregnant or just have a belly" issue on the train this morning. I have no problem giving up my seat for a pregnant woman, but I would rather take a sharp blow to the kidney than make a woman with a pasta pouch aware that I thought she was pregnant.

Thank God the man next to me offered his seat. She didnt take it anyway.
 
not the kidney shot, but the making a woman with a pasta pouch aware you thought she was pregnant...
 
I understand where you are coming from but that mode of thinking, given the volume of people on a train, means you literally never sit.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
I understand where you are coming from but that mode of thinking, given the volume of people on a train, means you literally never sit.
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I know.
It's just the way I was raised. I actually cannot sit comfortably and enjoy the fact that I have a seat when there is a woman or elderly person having to stand.
 
Dude, there is a whole minefield of things that go wrong giving up seats here. I had a gentleman frown and say "but... Im not that old."

Crap.

I saw a guy offer his seat and the wrong woman said thank you and started to sit down... awkward!

Half the time you are better off just pretending to be enthralled in your Nook.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Dude, there is a whole minefield of things that go wrong giving up seats here. I had a gentleman frown and say "but... Im not that old."

Crap.

I saw a guy offer his seat and the wrong woman said thank you and started to sit down... awkward!

Half the time you are better off just pretending to be enthralled in your Nook.
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I completely understand. I can definitely see how problems can arise or it can backfire in amongst all you crazy NYers. They should just stick all you guys on an island...........oh, wait.
:D
 
I just don't bother sitting down. The Metro here in DC isnt all that long and I am healthy enough to stand the few times I ride it. Not to mention the fact that usually the train is so packed you want to be within a short distance of the doors to be able to even get off at your stop.

But were I sitting, if a lady who is older than me (low 30s) approaches I will get up. Or an older guy. Or someone with small children (you decide if I am referring to girth or age).
 
Did we cover dead hookers? I think we did...

What about waiting at a busy bar to order and the bartender calls you when you know there are like three people who've been waiting longer? I know the general populace just orders their drink and doesn't lose a wink of sleep, but we're better than that, right?
 
Honest to God, I generally look to the guy waiting longer than I, point, and say "I think this gentleman was here first".

This is not because I am ethical. This is because one in ten times said gentleman will buy me a beer.
 
That's what I'm thinking

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HoppyDaze said:
What about waiting at a busy bar to order and the bartender calls you when you know there are like three people who've been waiting longer? I know the general populace just orders their drink and doesn't lose a wink of sleep, but we're better than that, right?
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CreamyGoodness said:
Honest to God, I generally look to the guy waiting longer than I, point, and say "I think this gentleman was here first".

This is not because I am ethical. This is because one in ten times said gentleman will buy me a beer.
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I do the same thing. Never had anyone buy me a beer though:drunk:
 
Sigh. Ok... this fits in with my theory that having a political leaning and being a person who thinks is difficult to manage at times.

A man on line at the grocery store offered to pay for my (cheap) beer with EBT if I gave him cash. For the record I am convinced that the VAST NUMBER of people on EBT, deserve and need EBT. I think we pay taxes, we then pay for very cheap labor, and then those laborers supplement their income with EBT. I think its similar to the tipping structure at restaurants.

But... I also think that EBT isnt for buying beer... and it isnt for getting cash. I dont even know if it was possible to buy beer on EBT... yet he was trying.

I gave him some lame excuse, escaped to another line, and snuck out after I paid.

I'm not sure if I behaved in a more ethical or a less ethical manner. Feh.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Honest to God, I generally look to the guy waiting longer than I, point, and say "I think this gentleman was here first".

This is not because I am ethical. This is because one in ten times said gentleman will buy me a beer.
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Kinda similarly ... Back when smoking was allowed in most bars, and I smoked cigars ... I'd always turn to the people on either side of me and ask them if they minded if I lit a cigar. If they said it was fine, I'd have my cigar ... if they said they'd prefer I did not, I would respond "not a problem" (etc) and not light up ... but about half the time they'd buy a drink for me.
 
I have been on EBT. I work full time and go to school full time trying to earn a degree. My wife and I support five kids. We never used EBT for anything other then what it was intended for. People who do stuff like trade cash and buy beer with it ruin a system that already has issues. You did the right thing!
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Sigh. Ok... this fits in with my theory that having a political leaning and being a person who thinks is difficult to manage at times.

A man on line at the grocery store offered to pay for my (cheap) beer with EBT if I gave him cash. For the record I am convinced that the VAST NUMBER of people on EBT, deserve and need EBT. I think we pay taxes, we then pay for very cheap labor, and then those laborers supplement their income with EBT. I think its similar to the tipping structure at restaurants.

But... I also think that EBT isnt for buying beer... and it isnt for getting cash. I dont even know if it was possible to buy beer on EBT... yet he was trying.

I gave him some lame excuse, escaped to another line, and snuck out after I paid.

I'm not sure if I behaved in a more ethical or a less ethical manner. Feh.
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Only unethical if you shove him down while yelling "get a job" followed by a Shooter McGavin double pistols
 
HoppyDaze said:
Only unethical if you shove him down while yelling "get a job" followed by a Shooter McGavin double pistols
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So.......that's not acceptable to do?
Well, now I know.
;)
 
A friend has a welder, it's broken so he takes it to the place he bought it and they tell him it's going to be $300-$400 to fix it because the main circuit board is shot and it's out of warranty. He buys a new one instead of fixing the old one.

This friend knows I tinker with electronics and one night he sees me at the bar and asks if I want to look at this broken welder to see if I can get it running. I ask him how much he wants to spend to fix it assuming he is asking me to repair it for him. Instead, he told me the story in the first paragraph; he's already purchased a new one and I can just have the old one to see if I can fix it.

So, a month or so ago he drops it off on my back step, it's one of those compact wirefeed welders, a Millermatic 135. I do the obligatory Internet searching to see if there are any common problems and find that the circuit board issue is virtually always the driver transistor for the wire feed motor.

I do the confirmation checks and sure enough, it's the transistor shorted emitter to collector. It's going to cost $0.97 for the transistor and just under $3 for shipping from Digikey.

Is there any obligation to him for the welder, considering it's going to cost me less than $5 to fix it and maybe two hours time between the research and repair?
 
I would feel obligated to tell them I was able to fix it, however it appears if it is a friend that they would either give it to you or they should pay you for your services if they try to take it back since you fixed it. However, it boils down to can you fix it or you can have it...
 
He gave it to you broken, as a 'here, it's yours... have fun'. If you couldn't fix it, I would imagine it'd be your hassle to take to the dump. If you couldn't fix it and turned it into a bitching dining room table (some how), it'd be your dining room table. If it cost you $500 to fix, and you opted to fix it, it'd be your $500 welder. The fact that it's only going to cost $5 and a few hours shouldn't change things. $5 and 2 hours time to you, based on your skills and knowledge of electronics and soldering and transistors etc isn't the same as $5 and 2 hours to someone else who doesn't have those skills.

Because he's your friend, I'd tell him that you were able to fix it. You don't have to tell him how much it cost or how long it took, but if he asks, be honest. If he gets upset and says he wants it back, or tries to sell it to you now that it's working, then let him take it back (no one likes an 'indian giver', but it's his) and charge him $30-50 / hour for your time. If you weren't fixing YOUR welder, but were instead fixing HIS welder, then you were performing a service for which you should be compensated. He winds up with 2 working welders, you wind up with $100 in your pocket, everyone wins.
 
I've got a HBS related question:

I normally use the same homebrew shop for supplies (but tend to mix online ordering or another shop out of convenience), and I'm a big spender on the days that I go; buy grain by the 50 or 55lb bag, hops by the pound, etc.. They normally give me great discounts because of quantity or will throw something in for free if its 1 non food item and they can skirt taxes. But, since I'm the only one who buys in bulk and they do all of their calculating by hand/price chart, they have on 3 separate occasions short changed themselves. I normally review my bill when I get home to catalog my software and call them back up to tell them they didn't charge me for x or didn't add right (the biggest mistake was leaving off a $70 bag of Marris Otter), giving my CC to make everything square.

Most recently they charged me $2 for a $12 item and I didn't call them on it. This is the 4th time they've shorted themselves and I don't feel bad because I've called them on the other 3 times and they should have learned their lesson by now. They will continue to get my business, but, did I do wrong?
 
GravityBrew said:
I've got a HBS related question:

I normally use the same homebrew shop for supplies (but tend to mix online ordering or another shop out of convenience), and I'm a big spender on the days that I go; buy grain by the 50 or 55lb bag, hops by the pound, etc.. They normally give me great discounts because of quantity or will throw something in for free if its 1 non food item and they can skirt taxes. But, since I'm the only one who buys in bulk and they do all of their calculating by hand/price chart, they have on 3 separate occasions short changed themselves. I normally review my bill when I get home to catalog my software and call them back up to tell them they didn't charge me for x or didn't add right (the biggest mistake was leaving off a $70 bag of Marris Otter), giving my CC to make everything square.

Most recently they charged me $2 for a $12 item and I didn't call them on it. This is the 4th time they've shorted themselves and I don't feel bad because I've called them on the other 3 times and they should have learned their lesson by now. They will continue to get my business, but, did I do wrong?
Click to expand...

I had the same issue with my lhbs when it first opened. Their POS system was not charging for certain items. I actually went back 2-3 different times to pay them for hops I got for free. It's only a mile away and I want them to succeed since they're nice and have great selection and competitive pricing. Maybe just bring it up in conversation next time you're there. Ask them if they've worked all the bugs out if the system as you can recall not paying enough and having to come back to pay more.
 
Here's a dilemma. I have a mechanic near my office that I use because its very convenient to drop off and pick up my car after work. He has always given me good rates and my car is always done on time.

The problem is he's an ******* to his employees. More than once I have been in the shop when he starts bitching some poor schmuck out for some perceived idiocy. It's very uncomfortable.

Here's the kicker: he was recently arrested for actual battery on an employee! Apparently he removed a hot thermostat from a car and burned the guy with it! I don't feel like I should continue to support him even though it is soooooo convenient for me to do so.
 
forstmeister said:
I had the same issue with my lhbs when it first opened. Their POS system was not charging for certain items. I actually went back 2-3 different times to pay them for hops I got for free. It's only a mile away and I want them to succeed since they're nice and have great selection and competitive pricing. Maybe just bring it up in conversation next time you're there. Ask them if they've worked all the bugs out if the system as you can recall not paying enough and having to come back to pay more.
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Their 'system' is ink and carbon paper. The bug that they have is not paying close attention.. and who knows, maybe the guy was giving me a discount without saying anything. They have a punch card system and the guy will punch my card 3 or 4 times/sack of grain, but I still haven't redeemed my 10% discounts because he sells me Marris Otter a $1/lb. I will bring it up next time I'm there, they have done an awesome job of getting people interested in the hobby and even forced a few of the local bars to start serving craft brew and not just BMC. The shop is about 4 blocks from my house, so again, they are not losing much money on me.
 
forstmeister said:
Here's a dilemma. I have a mechanic near my office that I use because its very convenient to drop off and pick up my car after work. He has always given me good rates and my car is always done on time.

The problem is he's an ******* to his employees. More than once I have been in the shop when he starts bitching some poor schmuck out for some perceived idiocy. It's very uncomfortable.

Here's the kicker: he was recently arrested for actual battery on an employee! Apparently he removed a hot thermostat from a car and burned the guy with it! I don't feel like I should continue to support him even though it is soooooo convenient for me to do so.
Click to expand...

Bitching out an employee is one thing (mostly because you might not know the entire back story), but after hearing about the assault, that's where my patronage would end.
 
GravityBrew said:
I've got a HBS related question:

I normally use the same homebrew shop for supplies (but tend to mix online ordering or another shop out of convenience), and I'm a big spender on the days that I go; buy grain by the 50 or 55lb bag, hops by the pound, etc.. They normally give me great discounts because of quantity or will throw something in for free if its 1 non food item and they can skirt taxes. But, since I'm the only one who buys in bulk and they do all of their calculating by hand/price chart, they have on 3 separate occasions short changed themselves. I normally review my bill when I get home to catalog my software and call them back up to tell them they didn't charge me for x or didn't add right (the biggest mistake was leaving off a $70 bag of Marris Otter), giving my CC to make everything square.

Most recently they charged me $2 for a $12 item and I didn't call them on it. This is the 4th time they've shorted themselves and I don't feel bad because I've called them on the other 3 times and they should have learned their lesson by now. They will continue to get my business, but, did I do wrong?
Click to expand...

"Do wrong"? I'd say more of a missed opportunity.

But I would also say that taking the time to post this question is an important opportunity for you to do something good for yourself in considering what happened and whether you will do it again. This is regardless of whether or not you repay that specific $10 undercharge.

Part of paying back an undercharge is for the benefit of the business, part of the benefit is for you.

The one who took the risk of going into business, the business owner, will absolutely want to know ... and will appreciate it.

If you were undercharged, so are other people. Those sorts of losses can be part of the prescription for a brewers supply going out of business.

The benefit to you of re-paying the right amount when undercharged ... is that it reinforces a valuable habit. That is, being honest even when no one is looking.
The alternative is necessarily, a conscious decision to allow a lack of honesty in the way you think. It starts out as a “consciously allowed” moment or incident, but provides a precident, (and in this case a cash reinforcement) ... But once that gets ingrained in how you conduct yourself it is insidious ... and some day, you will make a decision, or worse - start making decisions, based on that willingness to be less than forthright, and it will either bite you hard in the ass ... or you will be known as less than honest in other people’s eyes.

If you make up the difference *after* the shift that you purchased it on, I would not just give cash to the cashier. You don’t want your money ending up in someone’s pocket. So, if you can return the money ON that very shift ... that will be fine as it will be accounted in properly ... as the cashiers don’t want their drawer to be short. If it is after the day and shift of purchase, use a personal check and add the memo that says “balance for items undercharged on xxx date”.

The other day, I was shopping at Kroger and when I got done checking out at the self-checkout, I was pushing the cart out of the store and a bagger was looking somewhat intently at me, I wondered briefly if he knew me. I got all the way to the car and when I went to put the groceries in the trunk I saw that I had missed paying for a can of coffee and a gallon of milk that had been obscured by the seat on the cart. So I headed back into the store and went back to self-checkout and ran those through and paid for them. As I pushed the cart out of the store again, the look on the bagger’s face seemed to be one of bewilderment. The feeling to having made an example of how to conduct myself to that young bagger was great ... but having done the right thing by myself was priceless . For about $9 I had a good feeling for the rest of the afternoon.
 
Jacob Marley nailed it, despite his name-sakes history... Honor - doing the right thing when no one is looking. 9 times out of 10, doing the right thing is for you more so than anyone else. In this case, doing the right thing would help your sense of honor, as well as the store's ability to stay in business and keep providing you beer making supplies.
 
Yakima 300

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