Ethics Thread
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Brewsday
Well-Known Member
Besides being theft...where does this attitude come from "Or just skimming profit off a company that makes enough and keeps money in our relatively tight pockets?" The idea that all businesses are filthy profitable and deserve to be robbed is ludicrous. Especially friendly and good HB stores.
Now mine...wheeled my groceries out and loaded into my car. Noticed a cart parked nearby with a huge bottle of laundry detergent in the bottom rack. Nobody around. Tossed it in my car almost without thinking. Felt a little guilty. Paid the price when the teenage son used the car and apparently couldn't hear the 200 ounce bottle bouncing from side to side as he blasted the radio and turned corners on 2 wheels. Spent the next day rinsing 200 ounces of detergent out of the trunk.
Should I have left the bottle in the cart...you bet...
karma!
Now mine...wheeled my groceries out and loaded into my car. Noticed a cart parked nearby with a huge bottle of laundry detergent in the bottom rack. Nobody around. Tossed it in my car almost without thinking. Felt a little guilty. Paid the price when the teenage son used the car and apparently couldn't hear the 200 ounce bottle bouncing from side to side as he blasted the radio and turned corners on 2 wheels. Spent the next day rinsing 200 ounces of detergent out of the trunk.
Should I have left the bottle in the cart...you bet...
karma!
inhousebrew
Well-Known Member
Alright I knew it was wrong all along. Just had to bring it up and yes I still feel bad about it. Gonna have to send a link to this thread to my buddy although I doubt they will care much...
Torrents. Movies and music. If you know what I'm talking about, you're probably guilty.
Conflict of interest, perhaps.
nasty_rabbit
Well-Known Member
This happened at a local, privatly owned biscut joint when they over-changed me by $5.00. I gave it back and the next three visits I got a free biscut. I quit going in for about two weeks to hope that they would forget, I fealt a little uncomfortable about that.
gratus fermentatio
Well-Known Member
No, they put them there as a courtesy for you to use as you wish; you did so. The fact that you donated the soaps & such was a very nice thing to do for your fellow human beings & your community. Kudos to you sir!
Regards, GF.
gratus fermentatio
Well-Known Member
Ethical? NO. Thievery? YES.
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Possibly. But I have been in the same industry for 23 years. Almost ALL of my friends work with me in one way or another. Some are customers, some are vendors and some are fellow employees. I just don't know too many people outside of my industry.
gratus fermentatio
Well-Known Member
Now this is kinda tough. On 1 hand, I'd like to save the human, I think most of us have been (for lack of a better term) "taught" in one fashion or another, that human life is more important/more valuable than animal life.
But the fact that it's MY DOG is a BIG factor. Granted, it's only a big factor to me, but then I'm the one with this ethical dilemma. I don't know the human, but I LOVE my dog...
The human has the power of reason, opposable thumbs & the ability understand abstract concepts. He should've either learned to swim, or had enough sense to stay out of the water. Sorry bub, ethical or not, I'm saving my dog.
Regards, GF.
CGVT
Senior Member
Absolute no-brainer. Save the person screw the dog. A dog is an animal. If I was starving to death, I'd eat my dog. (and feed some of him to my starving neighbor)
headbanger
Well-Known Member
Is it unethical to stop in the middle of the road and lean out your car window to check your mail because you are simply too fat and lazy to pull into your driveway and get your fat ass out of the car to walk over to the mailbox?
worksnorth
Well-Known Member
headbanger said:
Ha ha Nope this isn't an example of ethics. ;-) it is something though.. possibly fodder for another thread?
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CreamyGoodness
Well-Known Member
If I found out that the President, another elected official, or the head of my company had been caught using another person's wireless... I wouldnt be scandalized. I think thats kind of my personal criteria...
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CreamyGoodness
Well-Known Member
OOOO I just thought of a good one (not to close off those already posed).
If your vegan friend comes over for dinner, and without thinking you use butter or an egg while you are cooking... is it unethical to remain silent and serve anyway, since she isnt allergic to that food and wont know the difference anyway?
If your vegan friend comes over for dinner, and without thinking you use butter or an egg while you are cooking... is it unethical to remain silent and serve anyway, since she isnt allergic to that food and wont know the difference anyway?
This is definitely it..... my dog is family and is treated as such. I would save my own first
riverfrontbrewer
Well-Known Member
I want to know what a biscuit joint is and how to get one here in Denver, it sounds delicious!
jerrodm
Well-Known Member
I have a friend who is strictly kosher, and I invited him over for dinner one night and forgot to mention that fact to my wife, who proceeded to feed him lasagna made with sausage. He loved it, and asked what was in it...I didn't have the heart to tell him, although I realized about two bites into the meal. Was it ethical that I kept it from him? I felt bad and slightly embarrassed, but mostly I didn't want him to feel like he'd violated his religious principles (it's not like he knew what he was eating after all) and I thought it was better to leave him unaware...
Brewsday
Well-Known Member
This happened to me...
My Black Lab went swimming in an icy river with pretty strong flow. He was a strong swimmer but the current was sweeping him downstream to an ice jam where I was pretty certain he'd get pulled under. I knew I couldn't go in without risking the same fate. Lucky for me he was a lab...I threw snowballs upstream and he "chased" the spots where they landed until I finally got him to the point where he could climb out.
My decisions:
1) Don't risk your own life for a dog...even one you love a lot
2) Never overestimate the intelligence of a lab, but you can always rely on their basic characteristics
3) Save the stranger before you save your dog...come on man, it's a human being
4) See if the dog or the stranger will chase snowballs to shore!
My Black Lab went swimming in an icy river with pretty strong flow. He was a strong swimmer but the current was sweeping him downstream to an ice jam where I was pretty certain he'd get pulled under. I knew I couldn't go in without risking the same fate. Lucky for me he was a lab...I threw snowballs upstream and he "chased" the spots where they landed until I finally got him to the point where he could climb out.
My decisions:
1) Don't risk your own life for a dog...even one you love a lot
2) Never overestimate the intelligence of a lab, but you can always rely on their basic characteristics
3) Save the stranger before you save your dog...come on man, it's a human being
4) See if the dog or the stranger will chase snowballs to shore!
jerrodm
Well-Known Member
OK I've got another one.
My father in law is generally a nice and upstanding guy, but he's one of these guys who LOVES getting things for free and will do almost anything to get a bargain.
So one of the things he does every week is that he goes to the local grocery store and picks up their leftover baked goods and expired dairy stuff for delivery to a local food bank/shelter, for distribution to needy families. Nice, pro-social behavior? Certainly!
However, I recently found out that, when he does this, he routinely sorts through the stuff that the bakery give him and keeps all the best stuff for his house--the good whole grain breads, the best-looking pies and pastries, the high quality yogurts, etc. The only stuff that he brings to the shelter is the leftovers--the plain white bread, smashed or broken pies and pastries, etc. And he's keeping the rest for himself. I have no idea if the grocery store or the shelter know that this is what's happening.
Now, a couple of things here--the food wouldn't get to the shelter if my FIL wasn't willing to go pick it up every week and deliver it, so poor people are being made better off. However, my FIL is solidly middle-class, and can easily afford to buy all this stuff on his own--he just does it because he loves getting things for free. And I strongly suspect that that's his whole motivation for picking up and delivering the food in the first place.
So is it ethical for him to do this, or not?
As a follow-up, the way I found this out was that one week he wasn't available to do this pickup, and asked me to do it in his stead. He specifically told me to keep out all the "good stuff", and give the rest to the shelter. I didn't, and gave everything to the shelter, then told him that they didn't have any of the stuff he liked that week. Was it ethical of me to lie to him, even if it meant giving more food to people who really needed it, instead of cherry pies to my middle class (not to mention diabetic!) father in law?
My father in law is generally a nice and upstanding guy, but he's one of these guys who LOVES getting things for free and will do almost anything to get a bargain.
So one of the things he does every week is that he goes to the local grocery store and picks up their leftover baked goods and expired dairy stuff for delivery to a local food bank/shelter, for distribution to needy families. Nice, pro-social behavior? Certainly!
However, I recently found out that, when he does this, he routinely sorts through the stuff that the bakery give him and keeps all the best stuff for his house--the good whole grain breads, the best-looking pies and pastries, the high quality yogurts, etc. The only stuff that he brings to the shelter is the leftovers--the plain white bread, smashed or broken pies and pastries, etc. And he's keeping the rest for himself. I have no idea if the grocery store or the shelter know that this is what's happening.
Now, a couple of things here--the food wouldn't get to the shelter if my FIL wasn't willing to go pick it up every week and deliver it, so poor people are being made better off. However, my FIL is solidly middle-class, and can easily afford to buy all this stuff on his own--he just does it because he loves getting things for free. And I strongly suspect that that's his whole motivation for picking up and delivering the food in the first place.
So is it ethical for him to do this, or not?
As a follow-up, the way I found this out was that one week he wasn't available to do this pickup, and asked me to do it in his stead. He specifically told me to keep out all the "good stuff", and give the rest to the shelter. I didn't, and gave everything to the shelter, then told him that they didn't have any of the stuff he liked that week. Was it ethical of me to lie to him, even if it meant giving more food to people who really needed it, instead of cherry pies to my middle class (not to mention diabetic!) father in law?
Here's another cooking-related one. I have an aunt and a good friend who both have full-blown Celiac. I've cooked for both of tem on numerous occasions, and I've never made either of them sick because I respect the condition and I'm very careful about ingredients and cross contamination. Its a bit of extra work, but I care about my friend's and my aunt's health and comfort so the extra work is worth it.
Let's say I have another friend who doesn't have Celiac, allergies, or other gluten sensitivity and, instead, she read an article in Cosmopolitan about how going gluten-free can help her lose those pesky 5 pounds and she made the voluntary decision to go gluten-free. I know that she doesn't, on her own, employ the rigorous gluten-avoidance stuff that people with Celiac have to (I.e. gets a hamburger and removes the bun after it's been in contact with everything else and eats the gluten contaminated burger).
Under those circumstances, is it unethical for me to not make a carefully gluten-free meal but tell her that I did?
Let's say I have another friend who doesn't have Celiac, allergies, or other gluten sensitivity and, instead, she read an article in Cosmopolitan about how going gluten-free can help her lose those pesky 5 pounds and she made the voluntary decision to go gluten-free. I know that she doesn't, on her own, employ the rigorous gluten-avoidance stuff that people with Celiac have to (I.e. gets a hamburger and removes the bun after it's been in contact with everything else and eats the gluten contaminated burger).
Under those circumstances, is it unethical for me to not make a carefully gluten-free meal but tell her that I did?
headbanger
Well-Known Member
I had a friend in college who was from Pakistan and, of course, muslim. Now, being the oblivious sort of guy that I am when it comes to religion, I had no idea at the time that muslims are pretty much forbidden from eating pork due to some kind of "filthy animal" concept. The problem was, he absolutely loved my chili and I use bacon grease to help render and flavor the meat as it grays at the beginning. Once I learned of his religious aversion to pork I just kept my mouth shut and let him keep loving the chili as I figured it was already too late. I figure if allah or mohammed or whoever has an ethical problem in regard they can take it up with me in the afterlife, therefore no reason to make my friend suffer due to his beliefs.
headbanger
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not! The same applies to yuppies who go vegan just because they think it's cool or trendy. One of the wife's friends had the nerve to complain to me because I used ham hock to season green beens with at Thanksgiving, in my own house! I simply told her she didn't have to eat it if she didn't like it, which went over really, really well.
To me if they have a medical condition that makes it an ethical/moral issue if you were to knowingly serve something with gluten. For someone who is using it as a fad diet? Not an ethics issue to me ...
I don't download pirated movies and music - I pay Comcast, Netflix and iTunes. But I know that both of my sons do. Have mentioned, casually, why I think its a bad idea, but haven't raised it up to the level of Serious Father Talk.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. To take it further, what if it was your spouse or kid in the river and you found out after the fact that someone was present who could have saved his/her life and chose to save his dog instead? I know which I would choose in that situation and would hope that someone else would do the same for somebody I cared about. Dogs are replaceable.
fuzzy2133
Well-Known Member
A good friend I grew up with is an insurance agent and my family runs a towing company. We give business both directions. Once or twice a year we will expense a lunch or dinner as business. I consider it ethical.
The line I have with Music and Movies have not changed since I was in high school. If a friend legally purchased it, shares it with me and gives me the OK to make a copy for my personal use it is ethical as long as I do not give this copy out. Not different than in the 80's when you could pop a tape in and hit record.
The line I have with Music and Movies have not changed since I was in high school. If a friend legally purchased it, shares it with me and gives me the OK to make a copy for my personal use it is ethical as long as I do not give this copy out. Not different than in the 80's when you could pop a tape in and hit record.
jerrodm
Well-Known Member
I would say the preferred course of action is to make what you want but be honest about it. If on the other hand it's a situation where you made something but realized afterward that's it conflicts with a guest's beliefs/preferences/whatever, I think it's probably better not to upset them, as long as it's not going to cause any health repercussions.
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CreamyGoodness
Well-Known Member
I think the ethics of "sharing" music at least are rapidly changing. When I can opt to listen to a song on youtube that the artist him/herself posted without buying it, it simply means that the business model has changed dramatically. Putting your music on spotify or youtube is akin to playing the guitar on the street corner. You put yourself out there and maybe something good happens, maybe it doesnt.
In the case of torrents... yeah... that is theft of intellectual property. I dont think it warrants some of the unbelievable fines people have received for it, but yes it should be punished.
In the case of torrents... yeah... that is theft of intellectual property. I dont think it warrants some of the unbelievable fines people have received for it, but yes it should be punished.
jerrodm
Well-Known Member
Regarding the music/movies thing, I've never felt bad about burning music from others. If someone burns me some tracks that I really like, I'll happily go out and pay $15 for the CD, or $25 for the LP if available. The way I look at it, if they never shared, I might not ever have gotten to hear that music and the artist never would have made the sale on my copy. Everybody wins. I suppose for those who never bother to go out and buy the album, it might be a different matter.
P.S.--This exact thing happened to me last week--was at home for the holidays and my brother burned a copy of Gary Clark Jr's "Blak and Blu" album for me. I listened to it, loved it, and two days later saw it on double LP vinyl at a record shop, and bought it happily for $23. And never felt a bit of guilt over having listened to it first on a "pirated" copy.
P.S.--This exact thing happened to me last week--was at home for the holidays and my brother burned a copy of Gary Clark Jr's "Blak and Blu" album for me. I listened to it, loved it, and two days later saw it on double LP vinyl at a record shop, and bought it happily for $23. And never felt a bit of guilt over having listened to it first on a "pirated" copy.
cluckk
Well-Known Member
sudsmcgee said:
How do you know their obesity is not compounded by a long term health problem? Besides the weight may be their fault but at a certain point they need the wheelchair. You're despising them is assuming you have some interest in their life, weight, health or activities.
I knew I was wrong when I used to download music and videos, but I gave that up a long time ago because of viruses and stuff. When it comes to copying from friends, I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt at all. Music companies have all of the money they need to lobby for laws beneficial to their side, but to me that doesn't change anything. Illegal or not, they are selling a permanent copy of the songs when they sell CDs. In my opinion, that CD is a license, and the owner can transfer it as long as they aren't making money off of it because that goes against the nature of the original purchase, which was to listen to the music.
Ethics aside, they are fighting a losing battle. They have spent a WHOLE LOT of money lobbying for laws and trying to come up with technology to combat "piracy". They should have used that capital to come with ways to encourage people to purchase their music legally.
The gravy train has run dry. Some day we may even see printer ink sell for a reasonable amount of money too.
jerrodm
Well-Known Member
I can see what you're saying, but it pretty much chaps my @ss to think that he's keeping all the "good" stuff for himself and giving the leftovers to the people who really need it. I mean, I don't think it would be wrong to keep one or two things, given that he is donating his time, gas &c. But when I asked him about it he said, "Oh, they don't appreciate this stuff anyway, so I just keep it." It seems like it's not about the act of giving at all, but just wanting to get some free snacks.
Also, I've just got to say that I can't imagine why he thinks baked goods from the store are that great, particularly when his wife (my MIL) is a phenomenal baker, and makes great pies, cakes, bread &c. Plus, he seriously is diabetic and doesn't need the extra sugar!
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CreamyGoodness
Well-Known Member
I DEFINITELY see where you are coming from, but I like to take a utilitarian approach to these sorts of things. If I am doing good, and I am getting something in return for doing good, at least I am still doing good. This is why I am not against tax breaks for charitable donations.
