ethical guidance sought

[Ó Flannagáin]

If paying a deposit and keeping is stealing, then why don't they fill out a police report. They have your information. ... because it's not illegal? Seems that way to me. Please enlighten me.

 

[bigjohnmilford]

If the kegs have enough info on them so you contact the brewery/distributor who owns them, then ethically, the guy who cleaned out his garage or whatever should contact them to inform them he has found some of their property and ask them what they want to do with the kegs.

If there is no way to contact the owner of the kegs, they are free game.

Ethically, it should be the same as finding something missing. If it is very valuable or significant, you should try to find the owner, turn into the police, etc. If it is not very valuable or significant but has contact info on it, contact the owner. If is not very valuable or signficant and has no contact info (and there is no lost and found, etc.), then you can do with it what you want.

If you find a $5 bill on the ground, then you don't need to post flyers around town about a missing $5 bill. I'd say it's the same way with kegs. If there's 2 unidentified dusty kegs sitting in an old garage, then you should feel free to buy them and use them for brewing. If you go to this guy and the kegs say: Brewery Name/Distributor Name/etc. all over it, I would pass the deal up and tell the guy he should contact the owners of the keg first.

-Jon

+1 that about as well put as it can be.

 

[Docapi]

If they are not stolen then the seller can or should be able to.

• Produce a receipt for the purchase of the items.
• Give a receipt for the sale of the items.

If he can't or won't then they are probably stolen.

Some one please do a FAQ for buying kegs!!!!

In that case, 99% of the stuff I own you would think to be stolen. I don't have the receipts anymore for the vast majority of my stuff. As far as giving a receipt for the sale, anybody can write a receipt on a piece of scrap paper.

 

[Germey]

The article was from 2003.
IIRC Sabco no longer sells directly to home brewers and the retailer links on the site don't work.

EDIT Kegs.com... Sabco.stores.yahoo.net works

I'm sure the price is largely dependent on volume. AB's price should be significantly cheaper than a craft brewery.

Finally, I'll go by what Brewtopia has posted. He's in a brewery startup right now. I don't think they WORLD KEG CONSPIRACY got to him yet. What do you think?

What did he post? I did try searching, and even used that cool new trick on Google I learned today, but couldn't find anything. I am accustomed to being able to find ANYTHING on the www if I set my mind to it, and I can't find an accurate quote for a new keg, which irritates me in an OCD kind of way.
I'm being snide about the world conspiracy, but the economics and politics of the current kegged beer distribution system are seriously out of whack, and heavily weighted in favor of the big guys. Therefore, I say it is our duty to try and appropriate at least two BMC kegs. One for our use and then donate one to a local brewpub.

 

[Orfy]

In that case, 99% of the stuff I own you would think to be stolen. I don't have the receipts anymore for the vast majority of my stuff. As far as giving a receipt for the sale, anybody can write a receipt on a piece of scrap paper.

Well at least you have tried to ensure you have done your bit.
I'm guessing with most of your stuff you do not have good reason to consider it may be stolen.
I buy 99% of my stuff new.
the 1% that isn't then I get a receipt. That way I have proof of purchase.
I don't want to buy stolen goods.

1. because it is unethical
2. because I don't want to get caught with it.

We all know that there are many stolen kegs around.

 

[Docapi]

Well at least you have tried to ensure you have done your bit.
I'm guessing with most of your stuff you do not have good reason to consider it may be stolen.
I buy 99% of my stuff new.
the 1% that isn't then I get a receipt. That way I have proof of purchase.

I think you missed my point-

If I were to put an ad on Craigslist to sell something, using your logic my stuff would be "most likely stolen", since I cannot produce a receipt for it. I (and I have to think most people) don't save my receipts long enough to still have it by the time I have tired of the item enough to sell it.

My whole point in the first place was that there was no reason that I could see (since I misunderstood the "sell them for scrap" statement) to jump to the conclusion that the kegs were "most likely stolen".

 

[iamjonsharp]

If paying a deposit and keeping is stealing, then why don't they fill out a police report. They have your information. ... because it's not illegal? Seems that way to me. Please enlighten me.

It is understood that you are buying the beer, not the keg. Just because the distributors/breweries don't fill out police reports for the stolen kegs doesn't mean its not illegal.

If the percentage of stolen kegs is small enough, the distributor/brewery could lose more money filling out police reports than simply replacing the kegs with new ones. For example, at my job with Albemarle County, we used to charge small fees for certain types of inspections/plan review revisions (around $60 or so). Well, it turned all the time and manhours it took to collect the fee was more than the $60, so we just axed the fee altogether.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

It is understood that you are buying the beer, not the keg. Just because the distributors/breweries don't fill out police reports for the stolen kegs doesn't mean its not illegal.

If the percentage of stolen kegs is small enough, the distributor/brewery could lose more money filling out police reports than simply replacing the kegs with new ones. For example, at my job with Albemarle County, we used to charge small fees for certain types of inspections/plan review revisions (around $60 or so). Well, it turned all the time and manhours it took to collect the fee was more than the $60, so we just axed the fee altogether.

I didn't know it cost money to fill out a police report. I don't think it does, so why not wait until you have 10 or so kegs missing, then fill them all out at the same time? Because they can't, the police would laugh and say "they paid a deposit in case they didn't bring em back"

 

[iamjonsharp]

I didn't know it cost money to fill out a police report. I don't think it does, so why not wait until you have 10 or so kegs missing, then fill them all out at the same time? Because they can't, the police would laugh and say "they paid a deposit in case they didn't bring em back"

There is no fee to pay the police, but it costs the brewery man-hours, and they'd still probably never get the kegs back. The amount of your stuff you get back when you get robbed is slim to none.

 

[Docapi]

The amount of your stuff you get back when you get robbed is slim to none.

Yeah, normally, but when the "robber" is kind enough to leave his name and contact info I gotta think the recovery rate might go up a bit

 

[iamjonsharp]

Yeah, normally, but when the "robber" is kind enough to leave his name and contact info I gotta think the recovery rate might go up a bit

Yeah, with what I've been reading, it looks like states and local governments have been handling this with enacting high deposit fee requirements and making it illegal for scrap metal buyers to buy any kegs. It simply may no longer be profitable for people to forgo their deposit to sell it off (for scrap metal at least). It may not be illegal, but it is definitely unethical.

 

[WOP31]

To the OP, here is a easy solution, tell the guy that you would like to look at the kegs, if you get there and have an uneasy feeling about it tell him that they won't work for your spaceship that you are building and that you'll have to keep looking around for a proper fuel tank.

Cheers
ib4tl

 

[Brakeman_Brewing]

To the OP, here is a easy solution, tell the guy that you would like to look at the kegs, if you get there and have an uneasy feeling about it tell him that they won't work for your spaceship that you are building and that you'll have to keep looking around for a proper fuel tank.

lol thats not a bad idea

 

[olllllo]

If I were to put an ad on Craigslist to sell something, using your logic my stuff would be "most likely stolen", since I cannot produce a receipt for it.

Go look in some of the other areas in craig. Do you really think the womon want to be compensated with roses?

 

[Special Ed]

I swear I saw a TV commercial advertising a free stainless steel keggle (some assembly required) when you purchase 15 gallons of budweiser?

Maybe I imagined it... who knows

 

[olllllo]

What did he post? I did try searching, and even used that cool new trick on Google I learned today, but couldn't find anything. I am accustomed to being able to find ANYTHING on the www if I set my mind to it, and I can't find an accurate quote for a new keg, which irritates me in an OCD kind of way.
I'm being snide about the world conspiracy, but the economics and politics of the current kegged beer distribution system are seriously out of whack, and heavily weighted in favor of the big guys. Therefore, I say it is our duty to try and appropriate at least two BMC kegs. One for our use and then donate one to a local brewpub.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=382599&postcount=66

You'll note that it follows your post.

 

[Zymurgrafi]

To the OP, here is a easy solution, tell the guy that you would like to look at the kegs, if you get there and have an uneasy feeling about it tell him that they won't work for your spaceship that you are building and that you'll have to keep looking around for a proper fuel tank.

Cheers
ib4tl

Ha. I may just do that... :fro:

Yeah, well, to reclarify. My intent was not to debate whether or not kegs not returned for deposits are stolen or not. I believe if you pay a deposit which is only a fraction of the cost and you do not return it knowingly and purposefully, you stole it. I was not really clear and my title was perhaps misleading. I tried to think about it before I posted so I would be clear, but I suppose my thinking was not clear ergo, my question was not clear.

I just had some reservations about the fact that the seller pointed out you could buy it from him and sell it for scrap, that seemed on reflection kind of odd. However, I suppose if he is asking for more than the price of scrap (which I did not know the amount of at the time of posting) than it is not all that strange, he is trying to get a better deal than the scrap yard. If what the seller stated is true (and I have no way of knowing, nor do I have evidence to doubt him) than he has some "junk" he wants to clean out, does not know to whom it belongs and would like someone to take it of his hands +get some money for it. My thinking is getting fuzzier still each trip to the keg I take...


Perhaps tomorrow I will have a clearer revelation...

 

[Docapi]

Go look in some of the other areas in craig. Do you really think the womon want to be compensated with roses?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I haven't seen this mentioned, yet, but it's worth discussion here, I think. Some distributors won't give you your deposit back without a receipt. I went with a friend to return two kegs, and he had lost the receipt. However, he did fill out the requisite paperwork upon purchasing the beer, including his name, address, phone number, and driver's license number. The distributor had also lost his info (I've seen this VERY often when returning kegs legitimately - it seems that distributors don't care to keep a lot of paperwork on file). So, he couldn't get the deposit back, the store wouldn't even take the kegs for free, and he was stuck with two 1/2 barrels. I told him to try returning them a second time, and if he couldn't get rid of them, I'd pay him the amount of the deposit and take the kegs.

Is this stealing? IMHO, not if you can't GIVE them back to the distributor!!!

 

[Germey]

Wow, look at this guys, apparently they are making them out of KEVLAR now!
You can direct fire them and everything.
http://cgi.ebay.com/15-5-Gallon-Emp...ryZ67137QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[dataz722]

If it is this big of a problem to the breweries then they should either start to charge a bigger deposit or follow up with the people that dont return them. I have a friend that lives in NY and said the deposit is $150. I HIGHLY doubt they have many kegs go missing.

Also, I live in Delaware and I bought a keg a few years ago. I think the deposit was 40 or 45 dollars. I did not have a kegerator and the keg was just for a party. I tried to return the keg 3/4 empty and the store refused to take it if it wasnt completly empty. By the time that I got around to figuring out how to empty the keg without pumping it forever and actualyl getting around to doing it it was too late to return the keg and they refused to give me my deposit back. I ended up taking the keg to a scrap yard so I could at least get some of my money back. Granted, this was before I was aware of all the ethical problems and whatnot. I am just saying that if they arent going give me my deposit back then they shouldnt have a problem not getting their keg back.

 

[Docapi]

Ya know, if the local video store can figure out how to get people to return movies on time, you would think the breweries would be able to figure it out, too.

Seems pretty simple to me- Forget the deposit. When you take the keg, leave your CC or Debit cartd number, with a signed contract saying if it isn't returned in X number of days that a $200 charge is authorized.

Bring it back or buy it.

 

[dataz722]

Ya know, if the local video store can figure out how to get people to return movies on time, you would think the breweries would be able to figure it out, too.

Seems pretty simple to me- Forget the deposit. When you take the keg, leave your CC or Debit cartd number, with a signed contract saying if it isn't returned in X number of days that a $200 charge is authorized.

Bring it back or buy it.

I agree whole heartedly.

 

[olllllo]

NY keg deposit is much closer to the actual replacement cost because it is mandated by state law and tied to an underage drinking law. You can google that.

High keg deposits are generally in areas where there are laws that regulate and register kegs.

Why? Something called price rigidity. Beer sold in kegs is somewhat unique in that the cost of the container is worth more than the product.

The economic reality of the situation is that keg deposits are costs that are difficult to pass down to the consumer. (Yes, its considered a cost... perceived cost)

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but you should read this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2165787/

It explains how Coke was not able to raise its prices to reflect the actual costs of production for 70 years because those costs could not be passed on to the consumer.

You probably also have no idea how easy it is to dispute a CC charge and how frequently it happens (and how much time and money business spend defending the disputes).

In this day and age of IDs at airport, etc, you would be shocked how many people order a ticket, verify their identity several times at the airport, fly the segments and then have the stones to dispute the charge.

Seriously, the movie rental is a bad analogy. A lost CD is pennies. Movie rental places use late fees and replacement fees as a revenue stream.

 

[Philip1993]

Well, the thing they gives me pause is that my local brewpub had 75 kegs stolen from them this year. I had asked them if they had any beaten up ones to sell and he told me about that. Apparently they were stolen so they could be sold for scrap.

I have a buddy that runs a business much like Sabco, only for trailers (and in tractor-trailers [Articulated Lorries]). It's a HUGE business that uses tons and tons of 4ft roll aluminum. Anyway, crack heads regularly cut through the fence and steal anything that isn't yet riveted on and sell it for scrap.

As for the legality, if it were worth the effort to prosecute I would expect that the might be "Theft by Conversion"

Theft by conversion - O.C.G.A. 16-8-4
When an individual has lawfully obtained the property of another for a specified use, and he instead converts the property for own use in violation of the agreement, it is called theft by conversion.

 

[Docapi]

Seriously, the movie rental is a bad analogy. A lost CD is pennies. Movie rental places use late fees and replacement fees as a revenue stream.

I wouldn't exactly call a lost DVD "pennies" the movie rental places pay more for them than we do at Wal-mart.

And my point was simply that if they can, as you say yourself, use the late fees and replacement fees as a revenue stream, then the beer places should be able to use the same tricks to either get their kegs back or recoup their money.

As fart as disputing charges on the card, yeah it can happen. But considering the fact that nearly any rental type business from blockbuster to your local A-1 equipment or party rental store use that same technique to ensure the return of the rental property, it must work.

 

[HenryHill]

I feel as sorry for Big Beer as I do for Big Tobacco......ethics........riiiighttt.....they SO care about us!

.....HH shakes head...again....

Everybody needs to really just let this go.

 

[beerdad]

Some women ask for flowers in returns for services on craigslist. Flowers = $$$

 

[olllllo]

While I don't feel sorry for big beer about hop prices, we all are paying more for hops because of scarcity. The same applies to kegs. Big beer holds the keg contracts so the micros have to wait for kegs and pay higher prices.

Obviously big beer can absorb costs better then a micro can. One might argue that big beer has a vested interest in keeping the status quo on kegs because it hurts them less. High keg prices help big beer. Shrinkage leads to higher prices.

If you have no clue about economics, you can continue to live in your "keg entitlement world," but please stop posting nonsense.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm with you man. Arguing about deposit cost is no way of justifying stealing property or buying stolen property. Anyone who invokes bottle/can deposit arguements is spewing bullsh!t. It's a nice idea to say, raise the deposit to represent actual replacement costs.. Fine, do that. It still doesn't make it right to take it for deposit price. It's just not for sale.

DVD rentals.. bad arguement. The big rental houses pay bulk license fees based on reported/expected rental occurances (number of views) and it has nothing to do with the discs itself. Netflix loses so many in the mail due to theft and damage that they negotiated the right to keep masters and press their own. The disc cost to them is likely less than 5 cents each.

 

[Docapi]

I'm not advocating theft of the kegs at all. Theft is theft, there is no excuse for it.What I am talking about is a simple way to STOP a lot of the theft.

The deposit thing is just a side discussion of why it is really kinda silly that it is an issue at all when it seem ridiculously simple to enact measures that would cut waaay down on the problem.

The DVD thing is a very valid statement. The price that the video stores is completely irrelevant. It isn't even about doggone DVD's.

The fact is, they have a very simple mechanism in place to take the cost of the DVD (heck, more than the cost of the DVD) out of your account if you don't return it. It is simple, it works, and it would be easy for the Breweries to do the same thing.

If you tell some college kid that he has to pay a $20 deposit, he might figure "Cool, a $20 coffee table!".

If you tell him that $200 is going to be charged to his card if it doesn't come back, then that coffee table gets too expensive.

 

[Docapi]

Some women ask for flowers in returns for services on craigslist. Flowers = $$$

Yeah, I figured out that much- just have absolutely no clue what it had to do with what was quoted, or the conversation in general.

 

[olllllo]

Yeah, I figured out that much- just have absolutely no clue what it had to do with what was quoted, or the conversation in general.

I posted thjat because you seemed to have a proclivity to take Craigs posts at face value when it suits you.

it would be easy for the Breweries to do the same thing.

Traditionally the Midwest has had lower deposit fees and any effort to bump them up has been a result of local ordinance.

In Michigan, the deposit price is set by the Liquor Control board, they magnanimously tripled the deposit.... from $10 to $30. Craft brewery's were pushing for $90, AB was pushing for $50.

In La Crosse, the deposit is set by local ordinance, same with Madison.

IIRC most places in WI still have a $10 deposit, Its been a few years since I bought one there, so I'll defer that.

In cases where there is not regulation, it has been harder to raise the cost due to the difficulty in passing the cost to consumers.

All of this is covered ground around here.

This is the prevailing wisdom on obtaining kegs here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Keggle#The_Ethical_Dilemma_of_Keg_Acquisition

Here is some more opinion from a craft brew website.
http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3480

 

[Docapi]

I posted thjat because you seemed to have a proclivity to take Craigs posts at face value when it suits you.

No.

I DON'T automatically assume that anybody posting on Craigslist is a criminal up to no good as you seem to, but I am well aware (most likely far more so than yourself) of the criminal element.

Your point seems to be that prostitutes sometimes post to craigslist, so a guy selling kegs must be a criminal. Yeah, can't argue with that logic.


BTW, for a moderator, you seem to not be very good at reading posts. I never once advocated raising deposits.

Intetresting- from the fifth post on the second link that you yourself posted:

"We've basically solved the problem with our Dock Sales kegs: $70 cash or credit card for deposit - no checks allowed. (And we run the credit card charge. When they return the keg, we run a refund credit on the same card.) If we don't get the keg back, at least we've got $70 in hand. (Plus $30 for the tap deposit, for a total deposit of $100.) Eugene is a university town, and this cash or credit card deposit system was the only way we could get our kegs back. You'd be shocked at the number of
people who went ahead and PAID that $100 on their credit card, and then forgot they paid it, and didn't remember they paid it until we called them and dangled the refund in front of them for incentive. They
usually brought back the keg & tap within a week once we called them."

Gee, what a novel Idea!

 

[BierMuncher]

***BM grabs a beer and settles in***

 

[Docapi]

***BM grabs a beer and settles in***

Tee hee

 

[olllllo]

I DON'T automatically assume that anybody posting on Craigslist is a criminal up to no good as you seem to, but I am well aware (most likely far more so than yourself) of the criminal element.

Your point seems to be that prostitutes sometimes post to craigslist, so a guy selling kegs must be a criminal. Yeah, can't argue with that logic.

BTW, for a moderator, you seem to not be very good at reading posts. I never once advocated raising deposits.

Intetresting- from the fifth post on the second link that you yourself posted:

"We've basically solved the problem with our Dock Sales kegs: $70 cash or credit card for deposit - no checks allowed. (And we run the credit card charge. When they return the keg, we run a refund credit on the same card.) If we don't get the keg back, at least we've got $70 in hand. (Plus $30 for the tap deposit, for a total deposit of $100.) Eugene is a university town, and this cash or credit card deposit system was the only way we could get our kegs back. You'd be shocked at the number ofpeople who went ahead and PAID that $100 on their credit card, and then forgot they paid it, and didn't remember they paid it until we called them and dangled the refund in front of them for incentive. They

usually brought back the keg & tap within a week once we called them."

Gee, what a novel Idea!

1) I also don't assume that all craigs posts are criminal. I wrote no such thing. I also did not say that you said that. I'm pointing out that one should not take the posts at face value. BTW: NO ONE BUT THE OP READ THE CRAIGS POST.

It was his first enumerated conclusion that the items might be stolen. I took the OP at his word. I'm not sure why you discount his first-hand account.

2)If we are going to parse each others words then this symantic game and thread is over. I concede that you did not advocate raising deposits in so many words, but the raising of the financial stakes of a beer purchase has the net effect of steering people away. The brewery that set a much higher potential cost run he risk that someone will choose another brand.

3) Which brings us to the probrewer post. In cases where the brewery has the liberty to do so it seems as though the free market works and your "novel" idea works fine. I just posted several areas where it cannot work due to regulatory and industry pressures. BTW the solution employed in Eugene is not cost free. You'll note that some has to manage that process with man hours. If you believe in free markets (as I do) then you know that when costs can be passed down to the consumer they will invariably do so. The fact that they do not (in the case of Kegs, I maintain) tells us that there are other factors in play that do not allow the free markets to work unfettered.

Finally, I do read the posts. I'd venture to say that I read more posts here then 95% of the people here. If that was meant as some ad-hominem attack on my character, I suggest you reconsider.

 

[the_bird]

Is there much more to be said here?

Really, I hear two conversations going on. One, how the keg deposit system should be structured, in an ideal world. Two, how the OP (who I personally know and view as a stand-up, ethical guy) should deal with whan he views as a potentially murky transactions, in the real, non-ideal world.

Unless there's a compelling reason to the contrary, I'm inclined for us all to just move on along (this'll come back up in conversation again next week, I'm sure)....

 

[olllllo]

Bird: I normally would have closed this, but my integrity has been questioned, so I have a conflict of interest now.

 

[BierMuncher]

A round for the house on me before this pub closes...