Entering sour and wild beers in competitions

[metic]

I'm looking for some guidance on submitting some sour beers into competitions. I've only entered one competition before, with a saison brewed with WLP 670. It picked up some tartness and funk from the brett, very low level but still perceptible. The judges scored it low, at 22, with most of the comments being to the effect that it was a good beer but the sourness and funk were not to style. So, lesson learnt, the saisons I want to brew don't fit in the BJCP saison category.

But now I want to enter another of my beers in a fairly big competition, and I'm wary about submitting to the wrong category again. The reason I'm doing this is to get some feedback, and its frustrating when most of the comments are about whether the beer fits in this category. This beer is a Flanders Red, aged on oak and raspberries. Something along the lines of Goose Island's Lolita, though nowhere near as good of course. I am wondering whether to enter it as a Flanders Red, or if it would be better placed in some other category (Wood Aged Beer? Fruit Beer?).

Any advice, or just experience with competing these beers, would be appreciated!

 

[microbusbrewery]

If the fruit is noticeable I'd go with 20A Fruit Beer. If it's not very noticeable, you might be able to enter it as 17B Flanders Red, but if you can pick out the raspberries even in the slightest, I'd go with 20A. Flanders Red are traditionally aged on oak so that's part of the style guidelines, so I wouldn't enter it in the wood-aged category.

There's also 16E Belgian Specialty if it doesn't quite fit into 20A or 17B. Based on your description that would have been the category I would have used for your saison.

 

[metic]

There's also 16E Belgian Specialty if it doesn't quite fit into 20A or 17B. Based on your description that would have been the category I would have used for your saison.

Yes, that was what one of the judges said about the saison. (The other said Geuze, which I found very strange. I'd describe the beer as lightly acidic at best.)

I got similar advice from someone else about submitting this in 16E, so I think that's what I'll do.

 

[metic]

Oh, the official BJCP guidelines actually list "Fruit-Based Flanders Red/Brown" as an example of 16E. Thanks for the advice.

 

[TNGabe]

Oh, the official BJCP guidelines actually list "Fruit-Based Flanders Red/Brown" as an example of 16E. Thanks for the advice.

But if the oak is noticeable and the judge has a wild hair, you'll still get dinged. Entering beer like this is a waste of time, money, and beer IMO. Either share it with people you know and palates you trust or send it to me. I'll be happy to fill out a BJCP scoresheet for you. If you do enter it, make sure you list oak if it's noticeabe, but don't list it if it's not.

 

[metic]

Yeah I've heard this before, and based on it I probably wouldn't submit sours to most competitions (unless it was something like a berlinerweisse maybe). But this is a fairly big comp, so I'm hoping the judging will be good.

It's not a great beer either, so I'm not expecting it to do especially well. It was one of my first sours, and I made a few mistakes along the way, but I think its at least a solid example. I want to see what kind of comments I get.

Anyway I'll post here once I get my results.

 

[BryanThompson]

Almost every competition I've entered I've received stupid comments on sours. On the same beer one said the brett was overwhelming. The other said there was no brett flavor. The last flanders red I did they claimed that I added cherries and dinged me for it. There were no cherries. Competitions are a waste of time.

 

[metic]

Fair enough. I'll come back here with the comments when I have them, and maybe this will be the only time I enter a sour. But hopefully judging in these categories will improve as more people start to brew and drink these styles.

On a similar note, I'd be equally cautious about entering some of my bitters into American competitions, because I think a lot of judges have a skewed picture of what some English beers taste like. But, in bigger competitions, I'd hope that at least some of the judges had experience drinking these beers in the U.K. and had a sense of their range. Although I guess it might be hard to know what to do with that knowledge, if you're supposed to be judging by the BJCP guidelines.

 

[dantheman13]

Interesting thread. I too am not a competition guy, but was thinking about entering a sour beer. It's a lambic blend that has a fairly strong oak presence. I would be afraid to enter it as a Gueuze because of the oak. I might forget about it completely... looking forward to your results, Metic.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Not to burst your bubble, but I don't think the size of the competition has much to do with the quality of the judging. I'd argue that you'd probably have a better chance of getting more qualified judges at a smaller comp than a really large one. It just kind of depends on the judging pool they have to pull from. When it's really big they may have to pull in judges that they normally wouldn't.

Sours are difficult categories to judge. They're kind of like IPA's and smoked beers...palate fatigue can set in fairly quickly.


http://microbusbrewery.org

 

[metic]

Not to burst your bubble, but I don't think the size of the competition has much to do with the quality of the judging. I'd argue that you'd probably have a better chance of getting more qualified judges at a smaller comp than a really large one. It just kind of depends on the judging pool they have to pull from. When it's really big they may have to pull in judges that they normally wouldn't.


http://microbusbrewery.org

Good point. Well, I'm going to enter it either way, but don't worry: I've got suitably low expectations.

 

[dcp27]

16E is the right place for your flanders and where your saison should have been as well. despite clearly listing fruit flanders as an example of 16E alot of judges seem to overlook it, so just be wary. not all judges are created equal

i wouldnt worry about being cautious of your bitters, if theyre to style they should do well.

good luck!

 

[metic]

It scored 40, and the berlinerweisse I entered scored 38.5. Neither placed. I should get the score sheets next week. Thanks again for the advice about category.

 

[dantheman13]

It scored 40, and the berlinerweisse I entered scored 38.5. Neither placed. I should get the score sheets next week. Thanks again for the advice about category.

Those are awesome scores. Must have had some stiff competition (or the judges sucked!). Did you have any worries about whether or not they would fit properly into a category? I am entering in a couple, but I the BJCP guidelines are a bit weird for lambics and gueuze. For example, mine is pretty heavily oaked and has a bit more body than classic commercial examples.

 

[metic]

I followed advice from people here and elsewhere, and entered the Flanders Red w/raspberries as a Belgian Specialty beer. Looking at the BJCP guidelines, Flanders Red w/ Fruit is actually listed as an example of that style. Seems like it was good advice.

I think getting the category right is a big part of getting good scores. I've only ever entered one competition before this, with a saison that had brett in it; I entered it as a saison and it scored 22, with most comments indicating that it wasa good beer but in the wrong category.

And yes, I think the competition was a tough one. They even included a note not to be discouraged if you didn't place in their announcement!

Please do not be discouraged if you did not win an award. The DMC has become one of the largest and toughest competitions around, this year attracting participants from California, Utah, Florida, Massachusetts, and beyond.

Anyway, I'm happy with my scores; I don't know if I'll be entering many more competitions though, it probably depends on how useful I find the comments once I get them.

 

[MrOrange]

I entered that same competition with my unblended lambic. Scored a 38.5 but I didn't place either. Must have been some really killer sours in it

 

[metic]

Yeah, second place BOS was a geuze. 22 entries in sour beers, and 41 in Belgian and French Ale.

 

[metic]

I wrote a post on my blog about these beers and their scoresheets, if anyone is interested.

 

[dantheman13]

Your results inspired me to enter my sours into my first competition. I'll post the results here.

 

[dantheman13]

Well, I placed first in a small local competition (9 entries) for "Belgian, French Saison, Belgian Strong" for my "gueuze". It scored a 43 and tied for the highest score in the comp. I also entered an uncarbed version of the same beer as a lambic, and it scored a 36.5. Interestingly I also entered it in the wood aged category because I felt like there was too much oak for a traditional style Gueuze, and it scored a 29 in that category. I haven't gotten my score sheets back yet, but I guess the "shotgun" approach worked. Personally, I thought it was a better lambic than a Gueuze simply based on style. I'll take the 1st place though!

 

[metic]

That's great, congratulations! I'd be curious to hear comparison between the comments once you have them.

 

[dantheman13]

That's great, congratulations! I'd be curious to hear comparison between the comments once you have them.

I made a quick video update on my youtube channel... for brevity's sake I didn't go through all the comments, although I certainly will here if you want me to.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqXGdU7gg2A[/ame]