enough power to my n

[npauley88]

I believe I'm having problems getting enough power to my burners.

I'm using a 15 psi regulator (non adjustable) to power 2 - low pressure 6" banjo burners from agri supply.
The regulator is 3/8" that connects to a 1/2" black iron pipe. the pipe has 2 needle valves that have 3/8" propane hoses connected.

Has anyone run into a similar problem and what can I do to solve this? Would decreasing the length of 1/2" black iron pipe have any affect?
My flame is pathetic when I have both running. (photos below)

please and thanks!

The setup:

Flame with one burner going:

flame with both going at the same time:

 

[Catt22]

I think that you may have a high pressure orifice on the end of that SS braided supply line attached to the black iron pipe and then possibly individual low pressure orifices at each burner. You are also trying to run low pressure burners with a high pressure regualator it seems.

We might be able to solve the puzzle if you supply some better pictures. Close ups of the end of that braided SS supply line while disconnected would answer the question about there being an unneeded orifice at that point. Close up of the orifice at the burner casting and how it's connected. I'm certain that the pipe and the needle valves are not the problem. It's the regulator/orifice combination that's giving you grief. Show us the individual components and I think we can get you fixed up in no time.

 

[npauley88]

not sure how clear it is but, the one on the right is the orifice that screws into the burner. It seems to be a bit smaller than the one on the left, which screws onto my propane tank.

does this help?

 

[DrJerryrigger]

The orifice to the tank is clearly more that twice the burner orifice, so that's not your problem (and the pressure from the tank being 600psi would make up for it if it was about the same).

So your have something limiting flow. The only things that would limit flow would be some path way less than twice the burner orifice size (by area, not width) which is unlikely in your set up. Or your regulator is not up to the task.
I suspect the later.

What is the regulator rated for in BTU's? what are the burners rated for at that pressure? If you can find a BTU rating for the burners at any given pressure I can calculate the orifice size and then the BTU's at your pressure (I'll have to dig up some books, but the calculations are rather simple)
It doesn't look like your running low pressure burners at high pressure to me, that would be a MUCH bigger flame.

 

[npauley88]

I purchased this specific one:
http://bayouclassicdepot.com/m3hph_propane_regulator.htm

The description says:

The BTUs for this regulator kit is 120,000 BTUs and is still considered high pressure.

The burners I have are these specific ones and the description does not give a rating.
http://www.agrisupply.com/burner-cast-low-presure-multi-hole-/p/40282/cn/5400000/

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

[Catt22]

not sure how clear it is but, the one on the right is the orifice that screws into the burner. It seems to be a bit smaller than the one on the left, which screws onto my propane tank.

does this help?

Yes, that helps a lot. I'm a bit confused. The pic shows the tank connector on the left and that's normal and OK. Nothing wrong there. OK, if the pic on the right is the orifice going into the burner, there should be two of them; one threading into each burner casting at the air damper. What I need to know is what kind of fitting is on the end of the SS hose where it attaches to the black iron pipe. Does that fitting have a tiny pin hole size orifice ID or does it have a very large ID of about 1/4". It should be a large ID, not a pin hole. If it is a high pressure orifice integral with the fitting on the end, you may have to cut it off and find a way to connect it back to the iron pipe. This intermediate orifice, if it's there as I think it might be, is creating a huge restriction. The problem is exacerbated with higher demand which would be expected. The burners will likely burn very rich with the fixed high pressure regulator and big low pressure orifices at the burners. If that happens you can replace the orifices at the burners for high pressure ones and that will probably fix it. You should definitely be able to run those burners at much higher flame levels. I'm still betting there is an extra orifice fitting causing the problem.

 

[Catt22]

I believe I'm having problems getting enough power to my burners.

I'm using a 15 psi regulator (non adjustable) to power 2 - low pressure 6" banjo burners from agri supply.
The regulator is 3/8" that connects to a 1/2" black iron pipe. the pipe has 2 needle valves that have 3/8" propane hoses connected.

Has anyone run into a similar problem and what can I do to solve this? Would decreasing the length of 1/2" black iron pipe have any affect?
My flame is pathetic when I have both running. (photos below)

please and thanks!

The setup:

Need a close up pic of the connection from the SS braided hose on the left to the black iron pipe. Separate them and show me a pic of the fitting on the end of the hose. That's where I expect to find a pin hole orifice.

 

[npauley88]

The one on the left is the piece that is at the end of the 1/2" black iron Pipe. It is a 1/2" MPT to 3/8" Male Flare.

The one on the right is the other end of the SS Braided propane hose. It is a 3/8" female flare swivel.

As you can tell, the one on the right is much smaller than the fitting that is going into the black iron pipe.

Would drilling this end out to a larger diameter solve the problem at all?

 

[Catt22]

Those both appear to be OK. I was expecting a much smaller hole in the fitting on the right, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It should not be necessary to drill it out. Now I'm stumped, but here's what I would do next.

Hook up the burners individually. Take the iron pipe and the needle valves out of the circuit. Operate the burners one at a time and see how they perform. If they work well running from only the regulator, then the problem must be somehow related to the needle valves. I can't see how the iron pipe would be an issue unless it's plugged up with something, but that would be very strange if it is.

There should be a needle valve just after the regulator which should be wide open when running as you initially had it configured. The only other suspects would be the twin needle valves, but unless they have some kind of a built-in orifice or check valve, I don't see how they could be the culprits. As a last resort, take a pic of both the inlet and outlet on one of the twin needle valves. Might be able to spot something there. The fixed pressure regulators usually either work or they don't. It would be rather unusual for it to only partially fail.

I'm assuming that you have not tripped the surge valve by suddenly opening the tank valve. The gas can rush to fill the relatively large volume of the iron pipe and extra supply hoses and this can trip the surge valve in the connector. When that happens, the gas flow slows dramatically. The cure is to open the tank valve slowly with the twin needle valves closed. Once the gas rail is pressurized, you can open the needle valves and light the burners. Tripping the surge valve is a common but easily avoided problem once you are aware of how it operates.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

I purchased this specific one:
http://bayouclassicdepot.com/m3hph_propane_regulator.htm

The description says:


The burners I have are these specific ones and the description does not give a rating.
http://www.agrisupply.com/burner-cast-low-presure-multi-hole-/p/40282/cn/5400000/

Thanks for the replies guys!

Okay, so those are low pressure burners. If they put out 70,000 BTU's at 11WC then they have an orifice of about 0.100in or a little larger than a #40 dirll. I can't find my books so I'll have to go by charts online, and I can't find one that covers your setup. But a #56 orifice (much smaller that yours) at 15PSI puts out about 93,000BTU's, more than half of what your reg is rated for. This is your problem. You might even be limiting your burners by the reg when running just one burner (the only way to know is by getting a pressure gauge on the system.

The "half flame" when both are running is about all those where designed to put out. Your flame looks okay even though your running a 70,000BTU burner at about 120,000 BTU's. If you want to continue to run them this hard (I'm not going to suggest you should) then you need to get a bigger regulator, or get a second tank and reg and run them off there own tanks (do not tie the two systems together).

The safest thing to do is to get a 150,000 BTU (or higher) Low Pressure (11 water column inches) regulator and run them with that. This will give you about the same flame your get when running both at the same time, but will not be effected by the other burner being on.

 

[npauley88]

Man do I feel like an idiot.

Turns out both needle valves were running in reverse order.

Not sure how I didn't catch that when i had to spin the valve in the opposite direction every time when I turned it on.

Anyways, problem solved. I took everything apart looking for any clogging and then noticed they were both reversed. Hooked both valves up correctly and now the 15 psi regulator spits out PLENTY of heat! Startled me at first haha.

I'm such a moron sometimes.

Thanks for all your help... and especially Catt22!
edit: and thank you DrJerryRigger for taking time to look all of that up.

 

[Catt22]

Okay, so those are low pressure burners. If they put out 70,000 BTU's at 11WC then they have an orifice of about 0.100in or a little larger than a #40 dirll. I can't find my books so I'll have to go by charts online, and I can't find one that covers your setup. But a #56 orifice (much smaller that yours) at 15PSI puts out about 93,000BTU's, more than half of what your reg is rated for. This is your problem. You might even be limiting your burners by the reg when running just one burner (the only way to know is by getting a pressure gauge on the system.

The "half flame" when both are running is about all those where designed to put out. Your flame looks okay even though your running a 70,000BTU burner at about 120,000 BTU's. If you want to continue to run them this hard (I'm not going to suggest you should) then you need to get a bigger regulator, or get a second tank and reg and run them off there own tanks (do not tie the two systems together).

The safest thing to do is to get a 150,000 BTU (or higher) Low Pressure (11 water column inches) regulator and run them with that. This will give you about the same flame your get when running both at the same time, but will not be effected by the other burner being on.

I disagree with most of the above. You can run those 6" ring burners at much higher flame levels than he shows in the pics. I have a Bayou Classic SQ-14 equipped with a 0-10 psi adjustable pressure regulator and a high pressure orifice and the same cast iron ring burner. It puts out a much more intense flame than shown in the OP's pics. I also have a low pressure Camp Chef with the identical burner. The low pressure burner running wide open looks similar to the first pic the OP posted. I would describe it as a moderate flame level. I use the LP burner on my MT where I only need a low to moderate flame level. It will boil ten gallons eventually, but takes much to long to get there. The SQ-14, OTOH puts out gobs of heat. It's a very popular burner in these parts. There should be no problem running two of those burners from a single tank, especially when you consider that it would be unusual to have two burners running wide open at the same time when brewing. Running them at WOT wastes a lot of fuel and heat anyway, so I see no reason to do it.

I mainly don't think he is out pacing the regulator and I'm basing that on the flame levels shown in the OP. Somehow, the gas is not getting to the burners in sufficient quantity or pressure. Hooking up the burners one at a time directly to the supply hose from the regulator will tell the tale for sure.

 

[Catt22]

Excellent! That is an understandable mistake. I've seen worse!

I'm happy to help. I view these problems as challenging puzzles to solve for fun and entertainment. Your pics helped tremendously.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

I disagree with most of the above. You can run those 6" ring burners at much higher flame levels than he shows in the pics. I have a Bayou Classic SQ-14 equipped with a 0-10 psi adjustable pressure regulator and a high pressure orifice and the same cast iron ring burner. It puts out a much more intense flame than shown in the OP's pics. I also have a low pressure Camp Chef with the identical burner. The low pressure burner running wide open looks similar to the first pic the OP posted. I would describe it as a moderate flame level. I use the LP burner on my MT where I only need a low to moderate flame level. It will boil ten gallons eventually, but takes much to long to get there. The SQ-14, OTOH puts out gobs of heat. It's a very popular burner in these parts. There should be no problem running two of those burners from a single tank, especially when you consider that it would be unusual to have two burners running wide open at the same time when brewing. Running them at WOT wastes a lot of fuel and heat anyway, so I see no reason to do it.

I mainly don't think he is out pacing the regulator and I'm basing that on the flame levels shown in the OP. Somehow, the gas is not getting to the burners in sufficient quantity or pressure. Hooking up the burners one at a time directly to the supply hose from the regulator will tell the tale for sure.

Well I guess your right, but he is clearly going way over the BTU rating for the reg if both burners are full open, even at LP, and quite likely with just one burner at 15psi. Though if you were to never open the needle valve all the way who knows what pressure (and therefore BTU's) you're really running.

As I look back to the pics now I see your point, the "half flame" is clearly not half the reg rating, 60,000BTU's would be a much much bigger flame... and therefore something else was limiting... as we now know.

 

[Catt22]

Well I guess your right, but he is clearly going way over the BTU rating for the reg if both burners are full open, even at LP, and quite likely with just one burner at 15psi. Though if you were to never open the needle valve all the way who knows what pressure (and therefore BTU's) you're really running.

As I look back to the pics now I see your point, the "half flame" is clearly not half the reg rating, 60,000BTU's would be a much much bigger flame... and therefore something else was limiting... as we now know.

FWIW, I snagged these specs on propane awhile back and thought you might find them of interest. The main point is that there is a maximum btu/hr limit due to the evaporation rate of the propane. This limit will be substantially lower than the regulator maximum output:

A 20lb cylinder will produce approximately…
35,000btu at 0 °F
50,000btu at 20 °F
65,000btu at 40 °F
80,000btu at 60 °F
90,000btu at 70 °F

Don’t forget though, that you only have a little over 20,000btu’s in a pound of propane. so a 20 pound cylinder only has about 400,000 btu’s. That means a 120,000 burner is going to use up 20 lbs of fuel in less than 4 hours. The temperature of the liquid propane in the cylinder will drop radically when the output is high. I've had cylinders "freeze up" running a big banjo burner at very high levels. The flame level was cut by about 75% when that happened. Switched out tanks and all was good. It appears that one would be hard pressed to get a sustained 100,000 btu/hr out of a 20 lb tank.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

FWIW, I snagged these specs on propane awhile back and thought you might find them of interest. The main point is that there is a maximum btu/hr limit due to the evaporation rate of the propane. This limit will be substantially lower than the regulator maximum output:

A 20lb cylinder will produce approximately…
35,000btu at 0 °F
50,000btu at 20 °F
65,000btu at 40 °F
80,000btu at 60 °F
90,000btu at 70 °F

Don’t forget though, that you only have a little over 20,000btu’s in a pound of propane. so a 20 pound cylinder only has about 400,000 btu’s. That means a 120,000 burner is going to use up 20 lbs of fuel in less than 4 hours. The temperature of the liquid propane in the cylinder will drop radically when the output is high. I've had cylinders "freeze up" running a big banjo burner at very high levels. The flame level was cut by about 75% when that happened. Switched out tanks and all was good. It appears that one would be hard pressed to get a sustained 100,000 btu/hr out of a 20 lb tank.

Cool, thanks for the info. I didn't even think about that as a limiting factor here, I have more experience with 100lb tanks and 20lb tanks used only for short bursts (I was once a glass blower).

 

[Catt22]

Some of my ancestors were glass blowers back in the 19th century including a prominent stained glass producer. That family name was Pelletier or something like that. There was a rift in the family tree somewhere in there and I wound up on the much less affluent side of the family. The hay day for them collapsed with the advent of rolled plate glass and I think laminated glass for autos as well. The glass was made by machine from then on and the pro glass blowers/makers were no longer in demand. At least that is the family lore. I have not tried to varify any of it, but I think that's basically what happened somewhere back then.

 

[bajabrewer7]

npauley88: Do you mind posting pictures of the burners running as they are now? I just ordered 3 of these for my rig and want to know what to expect.. Thanks!

 

[npauley88]

npauley88: Do you mind posting pictures of the burners running as they are now? I just ordered 3 of these for my rig and want to know what to expect.. Thanks!

I just put it away for today but tomorrow I'll be working on it some more and will definitely put some up!

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Some of my ancestors were glass blowers back in the 19th century including a prominent stained glass producer. That family name was Pelletier or something like that. There was a rift in the family tree somewhere in there and I wound up on the much less affluent side of the family. The hay day for them collapsed with the advent of rolled plate glass and I think laminated glass for autos as well. The glass was made by machine from then on and the pro glass blowers/makers were no longer in demand. At least that is the family lore. I have not tried to varify any of it, but I think that's basically what happened somewhere back then.

plate glass sure changed things. To make enough glass for the windows in a small house would take 3 skilled workers two days work, maybe more. Though the big manufactures had some really neat tricks which improved the speed of production well past that near the end of blown windows. With rolled or float glass it just comes out in a sheet about 6 feet wide at a rate of about 20 feet per min and is of better quality.
If you've ever seen the window pains on a really old building, you'll notice some are thicker at the bottom than the top. Many people attribute this to glass being a super cooled liquid and not a solid (you may have heard this before). This isn't the case at all, glass is far more stolid that that (Roman glass ware would be puddles if it was true). It's acutely that these windows where hand blown, and it was standard construction from to put the thicker end on the bottom.

Okay, back to the burners. I'm interested how they are working given their huge orifice size for high pressure. How is the value adjustment? It seems like it could be a rather small twist between off and crazy stupid high... I had a stove like that, an 1/8" turn between off and full on, the shower mixer valve in that apartment was the same way too, 1/8" between full cold and full hot... and I'm back:

Look forward to the pics