English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[ayrlander]

That's too pale for a 60/-. It should be dark brown. The grist doesn't look like any Scottish 60/-, either. Never seen roast barley in one and very rarely any crystal malt. Mostly they're just pale malt, sugar and flaked barley.

Sugar? Eh? Wouldn't that thin it out even more than it already would be?

Jamil's calls for either pale malt and roasted barley with a long boil, or pale malt, crystal (his uses 40L and 120L), Munich, honey malt, and pale chocolate.

 

[jwalk4]

That's too pale for a 60/-. It should be dark brown. The grist doesn't look like any Scottish 60/-, either. Never seen roast barley in one and very rarely any crystal malt. Mostly they're just pale malt, sugar and flaked barley.

Yeah, I'm with you. It was my first attempt at anything "Scottish." It could be a bit darker, but I'm not sure if just pale malt, sugar, and flaked barley won't give you those dark colours either.

BJCP 2015 states that modern 60/- and 70/- have "Later adapted to use additional ingredients, such as amber and brown malts, crystal and wheat malts, and roasted grains or dark sugars for color but not for the ‘roasty’ flavor."

Granted, my beer is closer in colour to a 70/- than a 60/-, but more appropriate in stats to be a 60/- than a 70/-. So I went with 60/-.

Other than that, flavor quantifiers for the BJCP are the exact same.

I guess I'll have to drink more beer to get a flavor for the style.

 

[patto1ro]

Sugar? Eh? Wouldn't that thin it out even more than it already would be?

Jamil's calls for either pale malt and roasted barley with a long boil, or pale malt, crystal (his uses 40L and 120L), Munich, honey malt, and pale chocolate.

Depends on what type of sugar you use. My guess is that all the "malt" flavours in Scottish beers comes form brewer's invert sugars.

Typically for a US Scottish Ale recipe, Jamil's is nothing like a beer brewed in Scotland. Scottish brewers almost never used dark malts and preferred short boils. My guess is that Jamil has never tried a genuine Scottish-brewed 60/-.

 

[patto1ro]

Yeah, I'm with you. It was my first attempt at anything "Scottish." It could be a bit darker, but I'm not sure if just pale malt, sugar, and flaked barley won't give you those dark colours either.

BJCP 2015 states that modern 60/- and 70/- have "Later adapted to use additional ingredients, such as amber and brown malts, crystal and wheat malts, and roasted grains or dark sugars for color but not for the ‘roasty’ flavor."

Granted, my beer is closer in colour to a 70/- than a 60/-, but more appropriate in stats to be a 60/- than a 70/-. So I went with 60/-.

Other than that, flavor quantifiers for the BJCP are the exact same.

I guess I'll have to drink more beer to get a flavor for the style.

No. 3 invert and caramel will give you plenty of colour. But it was standard practice for Scottish beers to be coloured up with caramel to the desired colour at racking time. The same beer could be sold in as many as a dozen different colour variations for different markets.

Amber and brown malt? You've got to be kidding. Maclay's used a little black malt after 1990, but that's the only roasted malt I've seen in a 60/-, 70/- or 80/-.

The BJCP guidlines for Scottish beers have im proved a little, but they're still miles away from real Scottish beers.

This is a recipe for an Edinburgh 70/-:

1957 Robert Younger Export
pale malt 6.50 lb 70.27%
flaked maize 1.50 lb 16.22%
No. 2 invert 1.25 lb 13.51%
caramel 1.00 oz 10.81%
Bramling Cross 90 min 0.75 oz
Bramling Cross 60 min 0.75 oz
Goldings 30 min 0.375 oz
OG 1045
FG 1012
ABV 4.37
Apparent attenuation 73.33%
IBU 33
SRM 20
Mash at 152º F
Sparge at 170º F
Boil time 90 minutes
pitching temp 61º F
Yeast White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Ale (McEwan's)
Wyeast 1728 Scottish ale (McEwans)


It's pretty typical of Scottish Shilling Ale recipes.

 

[Hanglow]

I can't think of many being produced. I know Loch Lomond make one now and again. I've had others from Caringorm and Fyne in the past but they don't make them anymore. They were both good iirc

I'd imagine any contemporary ones will probably shy away from using sugars due to the unfair stigma some people have attached to it ?


Do you have the recipes for any relatively modern ones @patto1ro ? I seem to remember you posting the Maclay ones before

RIP Maclay

edit; Broughton claim Greenmantle to be a 60/- on one part of their site then a 70/- in the description

"ABV: 3.9%

STORY: The beer on which the brewery was founded in 1979 takes its name from the John Buchan novel; Greenmantle. John Buchan spent many years of his childhood life in the village of Broughton where there is a museum dedicated to his memory.

TASTING NOTES: Greenmantle Ale is a dark copper coloured ale with a rich fruit bitter sweet flavour reminiscent of gooseberries and a pleasant, clean hop-bitter aftertaste. Greenmantle falls into the category of a Scottish 70/- Ale and at 3.9% ABV is a very session ale.


MAJOR INGREDIENTS:

Optic Pale Ale Malt, Crystal Malt & Black Malt.
Hops used are Fuggles, First Gold & Perle.
"

Their 80/- lists the same ingredients

 

[Qhrumphf]

Scottish brewers almost never used dark malts and preferred short boils. My guess is that Jamil has never tried a genuine Scottish-brewed 60/-.

I knew about the pale malt and sugar part, wasn't aware they didn't do the long boils. Thanks for once again shattering my misconceptions.

As far as Jamil, his recipes are based around BJCP guidelines and what does well in competition. Which as we all know is not the same as an authentic product. I believe he said he has had an authentic 60/-, but his recipe is aimed at judges who likely haven't and are going off of less tham stellar arbitrary guidelines.

 

[JKaranka]

These beers are really hard to come across, at least in this part, of the UK as well. I had one last year that I thought would have been a reasonable take on a typical Scottish session beer. Result? Very very similar to a dark mild. Maybe a tad sweeter than the ones I'm used to and a tiny bit lighter in colour too.

From what I've seen, Scottish ale is a pretty much different style in the US as it is in Belgium. The US take on British styles is also very peculiar: usually lots of crystal malt, no dry hopping, darker flavours, more yeast flavours; when, in fact, many ("ordinary") bitters are clean, pale, moderately bitter and have some hop aroma from dry hopping.

 

[patto1ro]

I can't think of many being produced. I know Loch Lomond make one now and again. I've had others from Caringorm and Fyne in the past but they don't make them anymore. They were both good iirc

I'd imagine any contemporary ones will probably shy away from using sugars due to the unfair stigma some people have attached to it ?


Do you have the recipes for any relatively modern ones @patto1ro ? I seem to remember you posting the Maclay ones before

RIP Maclay

edit; Broughton claim Greenmantle to be a 60/- on one part of their site then a 70/- in the description

"ABV: 3.9%

STORY: The beer on which the brewery was founded in 1979 takes its name from the John Buchan novel; Greenmantle. John Buchan spent many years of his childhood life in the village of Broughton where there is a museum dedicated to his memory.

TASTING NOTES: Greenmantle Ale is a dark copper coloured ale with a rich fruit bitter sweet flavour reminiscent of gooseberries and a pleasant, clean hop-bitter aftertaste. Greenmantle falls into the category of a Scottish 70/- Ale and at 3.9% ABV is a very session ale.


MAJOR INGREDIENTS:

Optic Pale Ale Malt, Crystal Malt & Black Malt.
Hops used are Fuggles, First Gold & Perle.
"

Their 80/- lists the same ingredients

I've Maclays records up until 1993. First use of crystal malt: February 1992.

I loved Maclays beers, especially the 60/-. I thought it a classic Dark Mild. But really it was just a low gravity Pale Ale coloured with caramel. Still a lovely beer, mind.

 

[patto1ro]

These beers are really hard to come across, at least in this part, of the UK as well. I had one last year that I thought would have been a reasonable take on a typical Scottish session beer. Result? Very very similar to a dark mild. Maybe a tad sweeter than the ones I'm used to and a tiny bit lighter in colour too.

From what I've seen, Scottish ale is a pretty much different style in the US as it is in Belgium. The US take on British styles is also very peculiar: usually lots of crystal malt, no dry hopping, darker flavours, more yeast flavours; when, in fact, many ("ordinary") bitters are clean, pale, moderately bitter and have some hop aroma from dry hopping.

In the far off days of my youth, the rare 60/- I encountered seemed pretty much like Dark Mild. I now realise it was just Boys Bitter coloured up with caramel.

The Scotch Ales in Belgium are derived from a different strand of Scottish beer. The earlier, completely different, Shilling Ales of the 19th century. Or Burton Ales.

 

[JKaranka]

In the far off days of my youth, the rare 60/- I encountered seemed pretty much like Dark Mild. I now realise it was just Boys Bitter coloured up with caramel.

The Scotch Ales in Belgium are derived from a different strand of Scottish beer. The earlier, completely different, Shilling Ales of the 19th century. Or Burton Ales.

Yeah, historical remnants (a bit like Darwin's finches isolated in the odd island). A bit like Orval Pale Ale and Italo-British Bulldog Ale...

 

[Hanglow]

First brew in ages tomorrow

I need to use up some grains, I've not been able to brew as much as I'd hoped the last few months.

It's all british ingredients but a fair amount of uk grown cascade should make it more modern american flavour. Plus it's a fairly decent abv

74.6% extra pale MO
14.9% Mild Malt
4.5% crystal 113 ebc
3.7% pale chocolate
2.2% torrified wheat

Progress 60g, bittering, flavour
UK cascade 100g, bittering, flavour, some aroma

1.065 OG
50IBUs or so
2xNotty yeast
25l


I'm going to leave my burton I've been wanting to brew for months untill i get some fresh malt.

 

[unionrdr]

That Burton barleywine is the next one I need to get done. After getting all the stuff to brew the mumme'...

 

[JKaranka]

First brew in ages tomorrow

I need to use up some grains, I've not been able to brew as much as I'd hoped the last few months.

It's all british ingredients but a fair amount of uk grown cascade should make it more modern american flavour. Plus it's a fairly decent abv

74.6% extra pale MO
14.9% Mild Malt
4.5% crystal 113 ebc
3.7% pale chocolate
2.2% torrified wheat

Progress 60g, bittering, flavour
UK cascade 100g, bittering, flavour, some aroma

1.065 OG
50IBUs or so
2xNotty yeast
25l


I'm going to leave my burton I've been wanting to brew for months untill i get some fresh malt.

That looks ok for a modern strong ale. Keep an oz of Cascade for dry hopping.

 

[Qhrumphf]

On the plate for this weekend.

Pale Mild (propping yeast):

5 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 87.0 %
4.0 oz Crystal Dark - 77L (Crisp) (75.0 SRM) Grain 2 4.3 %
8.0 oz UK Invert #3 (65.0 SRM) Sugar 3 8.7 %
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 14.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg West Yorkshire Ale (Wyeast Labs #1469) Yeast 5 -


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 8.8 Plato (1.035)
Est Final Gravity: 2.0 Plato (1.008)
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.6 %
Bitterness: 14.7 IBUs
Est Color: 8.2 SRM


Oat Dark Mild:


3.0 oz Sinamar (Wyermann) (3120.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 2.5 %
3 lbs Mild Malt (Muntons) (4.0 SRM) Grain 2 41.0 %
2 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM) Grain 3 27.4 %
12.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 10.3 %
8.0 oz Crystal Light - 45L (Crisp) (45.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.8 %
6.0 oz Chocolate Malt (Muntons) (395.0 SRM) Grain 6 5.1 %
8.0 oz UK Invert #3 (65.0 SRM) Sugar 7 6.8 %
0.75 oz Progress [6.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 18.7 IBUs
0.25 oz Progress [6.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 2.3 IBUs
1.0 pkg West Yorkshire Ale (Wyeast Labs #1469) Yeast 10 -


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 10.6 Plato (1.042)
Est Final Gravity: 2.5 Plato (1.010)
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.3 %
Bitterness: 21.0 IBUs
Est Color: 45.4 SRM (BeerSmith is dramatically overestimating the color from the Sinamar, from what I garner should be closer to 35 SRM).


Bramling Cross Bitter:

6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 86.7 %
8.0 oz Crystal Dark - 77L (Crisp) (75.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.7 %
8.0 oz UK Invert #2 (32.5 SRM) Sugar 3 6.7 %
1.00 oz Northdown [9.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 35.3 IBUs
0.75 oz Bramling Cross [5.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 7.1 IBUs
0.75 oz Bramling Cross [5.10 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg West Yorkshire Ale (Wyeast Labs #1469) Yeast 7 -
1.50 oz Bramling Cross [5.10 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 8 0.0 IBUs


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 11.3 Plato (1.045)
Est Final Gravity: 2.7 Plato (1.011)
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 %
Bitterness: 42.5 IBUs
Est Color: 8.8 SRM

 

[JKaranka]

I, personally, think I'd enjoy that BX bitter the most.

 

[JKaranka]

If you are doing all, I'd add some, any, late hops to the pale mild to avoid utter boredom (I prefer darks).

 

[Qhrumphf]

If you are doing all, I'd add some, any, late hops to the pale mild to avoid utter boredom (I prefer darks).

Thought about it. But while it says TF Maris, I was gifted a 10lb bag of Crisp Gleneagles Maris by my LHBS. They normally only stock the regular Crisp (which is a fine malt but I prefer the Fawcett), and are thinking of bringing the Crisp floor malted one on, and wanted me to test it for them. So I don't want anything getting in the way.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also it'll make for easy yeast washing (will be top cropping for the Bitter and the Dark, but going to harvest from the cake as well).

 

[JKaranka]

Fair enough! This far I've found some TF malts a tad dark (and pricier) so I've stuck to cheap and reliable Crisp and the odd Warminster floor malted.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Fair enough! This far I've found some TF malts a tad dark (and pricier) so I've stuck to cheap and reliable Crisp and the odd Warminster floor malted.

The TF is definitely a bit pricier than the regular (non floor malted) Crisp here too. Suddenly I don't see the TF floor malt on my LHBS website, so I'm hoping they haven't stopped stocking it (fortunately I have ~50 lbs of it left). But Crisp is ~$69 per sack, I think the TF is ~$75. Worth it to me. I'm hoping the floor malted Crisp is better. And if so, they have it listed at at $70, so cheaper than I remember Fawcett being.

I haven't seen Warminster here before.

 

[Hanglow]

I've just opened the packet of uk cascade I got from A Bushel of Hops


they smell incredible :rockin:

 

[JKaranka]

I've just opened the packet of uk cascade I got from A Bushel of Hops


they smell incredible :rockin:

Sounds good. You'll get a sense of the terroir. In the UK the US ones have better rep for being more grapefruity and citrusy. But if what you want is more floral I bet the UK ones will blend better.

Ron has posted a solid X ale recipe. Pale malt and crammed up with Goldings. Looks pretty solid, can't go wrong.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/lets-brew-wednesday-1852-barclay.html

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've never brewed anything with UK Cascade, but they're definitely different than US Cascade based on beers I've had with them (Hobson's Manor Ale comes to mind, but I know I've had others). There's a lot of similarity, but like @JKaranka said, less citrus/grapefruit, more floral, and very earthy. Distinctly English overtone to them. I dig them but not sure if I can get them.

 

[lowtones84]

Wanted to brew either my house bitter or mild today, but alas, I am snowed in at my girlfriend's place. The Export India Porter is coming along, but the brown and amber malts are taking some time to mellow. Going to try the first of my barleywine today, probably too early but it's been bottled for about 5 weeks.

Let us know how the oat mild and the bramling x bitter come out. I like bramling x but I've only used it in darker beers so far. Cheers, fellas!

 

[Hanglow]

The steeping cascades had a great aroma . Definitely more floral. Looking forward to this brew

 

[tgif]

How does the following recipe look for an ordinary bitter? I'm planning on using windsor dry yeast cause that's what I have on hand.

5.5lbs maris otter
.5lbs Simpson's medium crystal
Mash at 150 for 60 minutes

.67oz 5.6AA EKG @60 min
.67oz 5.6AA EKG @20 min
.66oz 5.6AA EKG @5 min
.5oz EKG dry hop 4 days

with ~80% efficiency I should have 5.5 gallons of wort with an OG of 1.033 and 29 IBUs.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Aside from the fact that I hate Windsor, I could dig it.

 

[tgif]

Aside from the fact that I hate Windsor, I could dig it.

What's the issue with Windsor? I figured I would use it since I had a pack, but I need to get the malt still so I'm open to other suggestions.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I just don't like the flavor, and it's uncooperative the very few times I used it. There are far, far better English strains out there. I'd go 1318, 1469 (my personal preference), 1028, 1098, or 1968 before I went Windsor. If you only have/only want to use dry yeast, use S04 or Nottingham.

 

[Hanglow]

windsor seems to be a bit divisive

If I was to use it again I'd pair it with nottingham, so the beer would finish lower, clear quicker but have a few decent esters.

I don;t like using it on its own though. It's too slow to finish

 

[JKaranka]

Attenuation and flocculation are worse than other British yeasts but esters and overall mouthfeel are good. As far as you take that into account in your design (e.g., I always use sugar with Windsor) and process (e.g., clear with gelatin and cold crash) you are ok.

 

[Hanglow]

I've just won some styrian cascades now so will be able to compare them with the british ones The NZ ones I had a couple of years ago were great iirc

Would be great to compare a base beer made at the same time with the different varieties

 

[Qhrumphf]

Attenuation and flocculation are worse than other British yeasts but esters and overall mouthfeel are good. As far as you take that into account in your design (e.g., I always use sugar with Windsor) and process (e.g., clear with gelatin and cold crash) you are ok.

Usually the nice thing about low attenuating yeasts (002/1968 for example) is that they drop bright very easily. Windsor, in my experience, attenuates worse, almost always seeming underattenuated, even with sugar use, and doesn't flocc easily. The esters are alright, but I prefer others. I see no reason to ever, ever use it.

I've just won some styrian cascades now so will be able to compare them with the british ones The NZ ones I had a couple of years ago were great iirc

Would be great to compare a base beer made at the same time with the different varieties

Sounds like someone has a lot of brewing to do FOR SCIENCE

 

[JKaranka]

Usually the nice thing about low attenuating yeasts (002/1968 for example) is that they drop bright very easily. Windsor, in my experience, attenuates worse, almost always seeming underattenuated, even with sugar use, and doesn't flocc easily. The esters are alright, but I prefer others. I see no reason to ever, ever use it.



Sounds like someone has a lot of brewing to do FOR SCIENCE

I'd use it again if I wanted Brett C to have a feast in secondary fermentation!

 

[Hanglow]

Any recipe suggestions for this?

definitely include
3kg mild malt
Wyeast North western ale

Then I have some pale MO, dark crystal, amber/brown/black/rb etc, some english hops like pilgrim/phoenix/challenger/fuggle/ and some different stryians (bobek, celia, golding, ) Plus the usual sugars

Wanting to keep the hopping and OG down as I want to build up and reuse the yeast from this. would be a 23l batch

so 6.6lb of base mild malt and a 6 gallon batch for our metrically impaired friends


Or I could just do a starter and make something bigger. hmm

 

[JKaranka]

Half a kilo of MO, and 250g of each Amber malt and sugar to put together a fairly average bitter? Bitter with Challenger and finish with a blend of styrians (including a hop stand). Can't be that bad.

 

[JKaranka]

I was just thinking about making a very very earthy / dunky EIPA with some hops I've had hanging around.

5.5 US Gallons
OG 1.057, FG 1.010, 48IBU, 6SRM

10lb Maris Otter
1lb Flaked Maize

60m - 0.8oz Challenger (25IBU)
15m - 0.8oz Target (16IBU), 0.8oz Fuggles (6IBU)
Hop Stand - 2.5oz Fuggles
Dry Hop - 2.5oz Target

 

[Hanglow]

That looks nice

I've got flaked maize too come to think of it. And oat malt. And torrified wheat. Need to use this stuff up as I have another order turning up tomorrow or wednesday

 

[JKaranka]

We can make sister brews! You could give a go at Challenger / Fuggles / Pilgrim!

 

[lowtones84]

So my Export India Porter has really turned the corner and is one of the best beers I've brewed. It's a little overcarbed, though. I seem to have this problem only with dark beers, though it's not 100% of the time.

I typically raise the temp at the end of the fermentation a few degrees. Any thoughts? I was thinking that perhaps I'm getting a wild yeast at times that's fermenting stuff from a high mash temp that would be taken care of during fermentation on a lower mashed beer, but there isn't really any off taste to be spoken for. Perhaps I should give a gentle rouse a couple of times with these English yeasts that floc out so hard? Raise the temp even more at the very end?