Electric Heating Element Controller for 2250W Boil Coil

[SeanGC]

I just recently purchased the 10gal, 120V Boil Coil created by blichmann, and I'm trying to develop a controller that will allow me to dial back the power without the use of a PID. I found this DIY Electric Heating Element Controller on HBT, but it's for a 2000W element. The 10gal, 120V Boil Coil is 2250W.

I couldn't find a 2250W dimmer, only 2000W dimmers. What can I do to build the same controller for a 2250W element?

The DIY instructions for the Electric Heating Element Controller for 2000W Element can be found here: http://homebrewers-haven.com/wpress/beer-brewing-equipment/diy-beer-brewing-equipment/electric-heating-element-controller-diy-project/

 

[MindenMan]

I'm just gonna throw this one out there; It's been a while since I have built any electronic specific "toys". I did build a STC-1000 controller, but I don't really consider that as building something. My point is, if I remember correctly, a single phase motor speed controller, as opposed to a heat sink style. Motor speed controllers are cheap next to big a$$ rheostats, and if I remember correctly will dim lights. It's late, and if I am wrong, well, I tried.

 

[iBrewR]

Would this work?

 

[alphaomega]

For this application, a dimmer is really not a good choice. The best way is to use an SSR and slow PWM (in the 0.1-1Hz range) as control signal. See this thread for a cheap and easy source of PWM.
Even though it can be tempting to use an SSVR, they are basically dimmers and have the same issues. Zero crossing solid state relays are much better.

 

[wilserbrewer]

The router controller may work, but it also may get a little "warm". With only 2250 watts you likely don't even need a controller if doing over say 4 gallon batches. 2250 watts is the very low end for 5 gallon batches, and the last thing you will need is to turn it down.

 

[SeanGC]

I was thinking of using this pot as a decoction pot and 5 gal extract pot (I teach homebrew classes locally). I normally brew on a 10 gal, 3 vessel electric system (modeled after Kal's build).

Since I'm looking to heat mash, I figured a controller would be good to dial down the temps when I reach sach for multi decoction steps.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Since I'm looking to heat mash, I figured a controller would be good to dial down the temps when I reach sach for multi decoction steps.

I would be cautious heating a mash with an immersion element, I would guess constant stirring will be needed to avoid scorching, maybe ok if it is running very low power IDK.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[SeanGC]

The description of the BoilCoil on Adventures in Homebrewing

LESS THAN Ultra low watt density means NO chance of scorching, and dry-fire capable (although we certainly don't recommend this!)

Link to the BoilCoil model that I purchased: http://www.homebrewing.org/Blichmann-120V-Boil-Coil-10-gal_p_4976.html

However, as a cautious brewer, I would be stirring the entire time regardless.

 

[SeanGC]

Can one purchase a PWM that would work with what I've posted? I don't have the knowledge to build one myself.

 

[jCOSbrew]

Search for Still dragon DIY controller.
It is basically an SSR with a potentiometer to control the power to the element.

 

[SeanGC]

And that would work for a 120V, 2250 W heating element?

 

[alphaomega]

That is most certainly an SSVR. It will work, but it will produce a lot of electrical noise. I still think SSR and PWM is the way to go.
You could use this for example to generate slow PWM for a regular SSR.

 

[zakleeright]

What is the motivation for not simply using a PID and an SSR? They work beautifully, the fuzzy logic learns your system and nails your target temps every time for mashing. For boiling, set to "duty-cycle" mode and you get the exact "roil" you're looking for.

 

[SeanGC]

I use PID + SRR for my electric HERMS. Don't get me wrong, I love it. However, I don't want to mount a temp probe to my 7.5 gal pot. Plus, since I'll be teaching extract brewing classes with it, I don't want guests to feel like they something as sophisticated as a PID controller.

The PWM allows me to dial back the heat manually, emulating how one might dial back the flame on a stove.

That's my logic, at least. lol

 

[Homercidal]

I vote for PWM + SSR. I had one that worked great until the plastic box got too warm and loosened the heatsink from the SSR, shorting it out. Lesson learned there!

I used the element on full for a few brews, but now I'm back to building that control panel with the PWM for the boil, and PID for the mash. (HERMS)

Having a knob to adjust the boil is super intuitive and the parts are pretty cheap. I used a Bakatronics control, but you could build a much simpler circuit for a few dollars that will work fien for this application.

 

[SeanGC]

Would anyone have a good diagram for a reliably PWM+SSR that would work for the boilcoil I listed?

 

[AnOldUR]

I teach homebrew classes locally.

Off topic, but for your classroom purposes, I'd think that an induction burner would be the way to go. Safe and easy.

 

[SeanGC]

You're probably right, AnOLDUR, but I already purchased the BoilCoil, which has subsequently led me to this conversation lol.

 

[kal]

The description of the BoilCoil on Adventures in Homebrewing:

LESS THAN Ultra low watt density means NO chance of scorching, and dry-fire capable (although we certainly don't recommend this!)

They mean with wort. Typically brewers never heat mash directly with any sort of heating element due to the localized heat that can scorch. This is why RIMS and HERMS do it via recirculation against wort only (grain is left in the MLT).

Kal

 

[dyqik]

I use PID + SRR for my electric HERMS. Don't get me wrong, I love it. However, I don't want to mount a temp probe to my 7.5 gal pot. Plus, since I'll be teaching extract brewing classes with it, I don't want guests to feel like they something as sophisticated as a PID controller.

The PWM allows me to dial back the heat manually, emulating how one might dial back the flame on a stove.

That's my logic, at least. lol

You could use the manual mode on a PID controller with that mode to give you power control without installing the temperature sensor. The manual mode is just a PWM mode.

 

[SeanGC]

They mean with wort. Typically brewers never heat mash directly with any sort of heating element due to the localized heat that can scorch. This is why RIMS and HERMS do it via recirculation against wort only (grain is left in the MLT).

Kal

A homebrew shop by me has had success heating their mash for decoctions using a heating element, with no scorching of the mash.

They brew on a 15 gal system, based off of your build, Kal. However, They have a separate pot and 5500W element that they control manually for their decoction mashes. I think it's a simple on/off switch. I consulted with them first before inquiring on HBT, and they said they've never had a problem heating the mash in this way. Just requires a lot of stirring.

You could use the manual mode on a PID controller with that mode to give you power control without installing the temperature sensor. The manual mode is just a PWM mode.

Funny enough, I didn't consider this. This could be a great alternative.

 

[dyqik]

You will need to connect the temperature sensor (or at least a dummy resistor in an RTD setup), I think, for the Auber PIDs, but you don't need to install it. And you can then use your control panel as a PID controller on a different system, or install the temperature sensor in a pump/recirculation setup if you want to demonstrate PID controlled BIAB with recirculation at a later date (with a smaller batch size in a 7.5 gal pot I guess).

 

[SeanGC]

This is the part that bums me. I don't want to install a temp probe into my pot. I would rather just control the power output to my element. I have an analog thermometer in my pot already, and would prefer to just dial down (or stop) the heat once I've reached the temps I need.

 

[kal]

As dyqik mentioned, you don't actually need a temp probe to use a PID in manual (duty cycle) mode.

Most PIDs (including Auber SYL-2352 PIDs) require that a temperature probe be connected in order for them to work, even if you want to test and run them in manual mode (such as it done in the boil kettle). If you wish to test a PID without a temperature probe do the following - assuming you have an Auber SYL-2352 (most others will probably have the same settings):

Set the PID SN setting to 0 to set the probe type to a 2-wire thermocouple probe and use a copper wire to short the PID terminals 4 & 5 together. The PID will then display ambient temperature and you'll be able to run the PID in manual mode.

Kal

 

[SeanGC]

I believe this will probably be the method I use. I was originally standoffish on purchasing a PID, since I wanted to keep the control buildout cheap, but I do believe it is the best method.

Thank you guys very much for all of your help and advice. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[barleypopmaker]

I hate to Hijack this thread, but I am looking at purchasing the 120V 10 Gal BoilCoil as well. I am looking at something like this for the controller, but am looking for a second opinion. Would this work for it?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0087O6S2A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[z-bob]

Here's what I'm looking at, to control a 3000W or 3500W heating element. No temperature probe or anything like that, just manually adjustable wattage (like a light dimmer on steroids) to prevent boilovers:

http://www.dx.com/p/3800w-scr-elect...-speed-control-thermostat-214354#.VDiDo0pX-uY

They're also available at Amazon and on eBay. I'm not sure I trust the 3800W rating. Those PC board traces and screw terminals don't look big enough for continuous 16A to me, but it's hard to tell how thick they are from a small picture.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Z-bob,

What size kettle? What size batch? With only 3000w I'm curious? With a larger kettle you may end up running 100% 100% of the time?


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[z-bob]

Z-bob,

What size kettle? What size batch? With only 3000w I'm curious? With a larger kettle you may end up running 100% 100% of the time?


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

5 to 6 gallon batches.

I'm still building it in my head, with no practical experience to draw from I've done 4 to 5 pound mashes before (years ago) and I want to move up. But I'm already at the limit of what I can do on my kitchen stove.

I got the electric brewery idea mainly from a British youtube video I saw, and also this: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/ElectBrKS0396.html He says he was getting boilovers at 2250 watts.

Current plan is that 3800W controller and a single 2500W low-watt-density heating element in a 7 or 8 gallon HDPE bucket to use as my boiling kettle.

Then make another 7 or 8 gallon bucket with just a 3500W or larger element (biggest one that will fit) and no controller for a hot liquor tank.

Someday I'd like to be able to brew 15 gallons at a time, but that's a long way off. I'm about to do my first all-grain brew, 3 gallons mashed and boiled on top of the stove.

 

[wilserbrewer]

5 to 6 gallon batches.


I got the electric brewery idea mainly from a British youtube video I saw, and also this: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/ElectBrKS0396.html He says he was getting boilovers at 2250 watts.

Current plan is that 3800W controller and a single 2500W low-watt-density heating element in a 7 or 8 gallon HDPE bucket to use as my boiling kettle.


Someday I'd like to be able to brew 15 gallons at a time,

Ok, kinda funny actually, your link for the 5 gallon plastic brewery was one of very few references around 15 years ago when I struggled to put together an e-brewery.

From my experience I would advise the following if this is the route you want to take....

With only 2000 - 2500 watts for five gallon batches, the need for a controller to turn the power down is a result of trying to use too small a kettle IMO! A 7 gallon kettle for 5 gallon batches is too small!!!

I would highly advise trying to find an HDPE container like this....my LHBS gives them away, they are available but you need to look around. I have also seen them on craigslist for not much money?
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23849
and cut it down to 10-12 gallons for brewing 5 gallon batches, or larger as needed.

I would then install a 2000w element (or build a heatstick) on a 20 amp GFI (high - low - or ultra low density as you desire, because they all will work IME)or even better a 2500w and do a test boil of 7 gallons and see how it works.

It may even be possible to do ten gallon batches in the container linked above w/ 2000 - 2500w, slow but possible.

Building a controller is a wonderful idea, it just doesn't make sense to build a controller for an underpowered kettle? IME 2500w should be just about the sweet spot for five gallon batches, and with a large enough kettle you will likely never need to turn it down, but rather wish to turn it up...like to 11, wasn't that a line in a movie?

I have had a hunch, and have wanted to try and build a budget 10 gallon brewery for kicks and curiosity, (as I already have 6-8 large brew kettles) with one of the 15 gallon HDPE drums powered by a 2000w, $10 HD element commonly available powered on a 20 amp 110v GFI circuit. I would remove the top for a 15 gallon vessel, heat strike water and turn off element, add BIAB bag and grain bill, insulate with a blanket for the mash rest. Remove grain bag and boil.

 

[z-bob]

I really like that idea; I could use two 2500W elements in a 15 gallon plastic kettle, with a cheap controller on one and just a switch on the other.

Unless I can find used plastic drum locally -- that have not previously contained weed killer -- I will probably go with the 7 gallon buckets first as a proof of concept. I checked craigslist and there are a few but they are 90 miles away. Also I gotta clear out some space for whatever I do.

A lot to think about. Thanks.

 

[z-bob]

I have had a hunch, and have wanted to try and build a budget 10 gallon brewery for kicks and curiosity, (as I already have 6-8 large brew kettles) with one of the 15 gallon HDPE drums powered by a 2000w, $10 HD element commonly available powered on a 20 amp 110v GFI circuit. I would remove the top for a 15 gallon vessel, heat strike water and turn off element, add BIAB bag and grain bill, insulate with a blanket for the mash rest. Remove grain bag and boil.

So the entire process is in one kettle? Maybe a small loss of efficiency, (sugar left in the spent grain) but a small price to pay for the convenience.

What I had in mind was 2 pots. I would mash BIAB in the boil kettle. Transfer the bag to the HLT to sparge for 10 minutes, then drain HLT into the kettle and start the boil.

ETA: I found this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/single-vessel-all-electric-ns-nc-brewery-158608/

 

[z-bob]

I would highly advise trying to find an HDPE container like this....my LHBS gives them away, they are available but you need to look around. I have also seen them on craigslist for not much money?
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23849
and cut it down to 10-12 gallons for brewing 5 gallon batches, or larger as needed.
[snip]
I have had a hunch, and have wanted to try and build a budget 10 gallon brewery for kicks and curiosity, (as I already have 6-8 large brew kettles) with one of the 15 gallon HDPE drums powered by a 2000w, $10 HD element commonly available powered on a 20 amp 110v GFI circuit. I would remove the top for a 15 gallon vessel, heat strike water and turn off element, add BIAB bag and grain bill, insulate with a blanket for the mash rest. Remove grain bag and boil.

Would there be any problem with using a tall 15 gallon pot for just 5 or 6 gallons? (like the one you linked with the top cut off) It might reduce the evaporation rate, but that's not a bad thing if you plan for it.

I've ordered a couple of 240v WH elements and a stainless steel nut to play with. A 5500W (should be 1375 watts at 120v) and a 2500W. Both are folded, making them short enough to install in a 5 gallon bucket. I'll try not to electrocute myself