dry hopping?????

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RickyLopez

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So....I'm making a kolsch... I may have mashed a little to high...
I racked to a secondary today and tasted a bit...
Its still pretty sweet/malty...and even has a banana like yeast
Flavor..... the hops are not so present... so... should I dry hop
A little to balance out the flavors??? Leave it be??? I just racked
And put in my 36 F fridge...going to leave it be for a few weeks

Is it still to early to make final decisions on how its going to end up???
I feel it needs that hoppy bite to balance the malty sweetness...
Also....is there anyway to dry the beer a little at this point????

Can anyone offer tips to get that nice, dry, pilsner taste for future batches?
 
Dry hopping won't do much to balance out the malty sweetness. Dry hopping does not impart any IBUs to the beer, since the alpha acids are not isomerized.

The banana flavor is from an ester known as isoamyl acetate. It will diminish a bit with some age, but don't expect this to be spot for the Kölsch style. At what temperature did you ferment? Did you make a yeast starter? What was the recipe?

Personally, I would give a week or so at room temperature, then follow that up with a month or so of lagering (~35F). Taste it periodically to make sure it is making progress.

Good luck,
TB
 
I feel it needs that hoppy bite to balance the malty sweetness...
Also....is there anyway to dry the beer a little at this point????

Can anyone offer tips to get that nice, dry, pilsner taste for future batches?

I just noticed this part (maybe you edited your post?).

What is the current gravity of the beer? If it is higher than you were aiming for, then we need to find out what caused the yeast to under attenuate. As per my first response above, in an effort to dry this beer out, don't lager it quite yet. Let it get warm (about room temp) for at least a week. You could try pitching additional yeast, but IMO that extra yeast would better be served in a new batch of beer to start over and do it right. If the gravity is what you were aiming for, then you would need to have added more hops to the boil to balance out any perceived sweetness. I would say it's a bit late for this beer if that's the case.
 
I agree with Tiber_brew with the wait part but disagree with the statement regarding dry hops not adding any bitterness or balance. I had the same problem mashing a 30 gallon batch of light American lager that went over temp during a stuck recirculation. It turned out sweeter than it should have. I transferred to 5 gallon secondary's and tried different dry hop additions to balance out the sweetness. The beer I was considering dumping actually became what is now a house flavor and one of my favorites. I ended up using Warrior hops and the bitterness was just right to balance the sweetness and also added a little apricot fruit notes. Not the exact style it was supposed to be originally but turned out to be awesome.
 
I agree with Tiber_brew with the wait part but disagree with the statement regarding dry hops not adding any bitterness or balance. I had the same problem mashing a 30 gallon batch of light American lager that went over temp during a stuck recirculation. It turned out sweeter than it should have. I transferred to 5 gallon secondary's and tried different dry hop additions to balance out the sweetness. The beer I was considering dumping actually became what is now a house flavor and one of my favorites. I ended up using Warrior hops and the bitterness was just right to balance the sweetness and also added a little apricot fruit notes. Not the exact style it was supposed to be originally but turned out to be awesome.

Dry hopping does not impart bitterness. IBUs come from isomerizing alpha acids, which only occurs if they are boiled. I disagree that dry hopping balances sweetness, but hey, that could be just a differing perception of flavor.

You could try dry hopping to somewhat offset and overpower the sweetness, but it won't get any more bitter and the BU:GU ratio will not change.
 
I understand the science behind getting the most IBUs out of hops but I still disagree. If your statement was correct than you wouldn't be able to taste the bitterness of pellet hops out of the bag. I can and they do impart bitterness to the beer even if they are not boiled. Certainly you are correct in saying it would not be as effective as boiling them but the OP is looking for a solution to a beer post fermentation.
 
If your statement was correct than you wouldn't be able to taste the bitterness of pellet hops out of the bag.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but clearly you don't fully understand the science. Yes, the alpha acids do taste bitter in pellet (or cone) form. And yes, when you add that to a secondary fermenter, those alpha acids still taste bitter. However, it won't dissolve in the beer because it isn't isomerized. It just isn't a reasonable measure to try to add IBUs to a beer. Period. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't just speak from my understanding of the science, but I've been there as well, just like you and the OP. Dry hops are no substitute for IBUs, and you will never get the same balance with out it.

I can and they do impart bitterness to the beer even if they are not boiled.
The non-soluble alpha acids are floating around, until you rack the beer off the hop matter and further dilute what little amount of bitter chunks of hop pellet there is floating around in it. To get the proper balance of perceived bitterness, you'd have to dry hop something to the order of 1 or 2 pounds of hops.

Certainly you are correct in saying it would not be as effective as boiling them but the OP is looking for a solution to a beer post fermentation.
Agreed. I don't think this beer will turn out how he/she wants. At what point do you throw in the towel & try again and do it right the second time? When you're talking about dry hopping the life out of a beer enough to get some amount of bitterness out of it?

I think OP would have better luck making a hop tea and adding that back to the beer. It would be difficult to accurately estimate the new IBU value of the beer, but at least you would be adding some. You could make a small hopped malt extract solution and add some to a glass of the sweet beer in small measured amounts until you are satisfied. Then record that ratio and do the same for the whole 5 gallons. I would do that, then, brew the recipe again once you've learned what went wrong and how to fix it.

Cheers and good luck!
TB
 
I'm not trying to be rude here, but clearly you don't fully understand the science.

I’m not trying to be rude either but clearly you can’t think outside the science. Not sure if you realize this but most of the greatest scientific discoveries of our time were discovered by accident and more than likely how beer was discovered. If all brewers and chef’s never thought outside the science we would not have some of the great beers and food we have today. The OP is looking for solutions to help with a post fermentation beer and your only real advice is wait, when to throw in the towel or a "lesson” on isomerized IBU's. I’m sure your knowledge is appreciated and will be useful to the OP in future beers but offers little real help for the beer in question. I am simply responding the question regarding dry hopping based on my personal experience as sweetcell did with the hop tea idea he offered. The simple fact is dry hopping can balance out sweetness and add bitterness whether it is perceived or actual bitterness it still does the trick. So we will have to agree to disagree. :mug:
 
RickyLopez said:
So....I'm making a kolsch... I may have mashed a little to high...
I racked to a secondary today and tasted a bit...
Its still pretty sweet/malty...and even has a banana like yeast
Flavor..... the hops are not so present... so... should I dry hop
A little to balance out the flavors??? Leave it be??? I just racked
And put in my 36 F fridge...going to leave it be for a few weeks

Is it still to early to make final decisions on how its going to end up???
I feel it needs that hoppy bite to balance the malty sweetness...
Also....is there anyway to dry the beer a little at this point????

Can anyone offer tips to get that nice, dry, pilsner taste for future batches?

Make it a sour and infect it :)
 
I'm not trying to be rude here, but clearly you don't fully understand the science.

I’m not trying to be rude either but clearly you can’t think outside the science.

I think I understand what MaxOut is saying... That there is a certain innate bitterness to hops outside of alpha acid isomerization and IBUs. You can pop a raw hop pellet in your mouth and sense a sort of bittersweet flavor if asked to describe, and that would be an acceptable answer.

However, after I dryhop an American IPA (with a lot of citrusy, fruity aromatic Pacific NW hops) it gives me much more of a perceived juicy sweetness than a bitterness. To the contrary, the dryhops helps to balance out the bitterness with a sort of juicy sweetness. Though if you're using a normal amount of vegetal and grassy hops, then that would be probably perceived more as having a more bitter vegetal nature.
 
I’m not trying to be rude either but clearly you can’t think outside the science. Not sure if you realize this but most of the greatest scientific discoveries of our time were discovered by accident and more than likely how beer was discovered. If all brewers and chef’s never thought outside the science we would not have some of the great beers and food we have today. The OP is looking for solutions to help with a post fermentation beer and your only real advice is wait, when to throw in the towel or a "lesson” on isomerized IBU's. I’m sure your knowledge is appreciated and will be useful to the OP in future beers but offers little real help for the beer in question. I am simply responding the question regarding dry hopping based on my personal experience as sweetcell did with the hop tea idea he offered. The simple fact is dry hopping can balance out sweetness and add bitterness whether it is perceived or actual bitterness it still does the trick. So we will have to agree to disagree. :mug:


Perhaps you missed the parts where I mentioned that I've done this before, therefore adding experience to my opinion, not just the science, or when I also expanded on the hop tea/hop tincture option. I didn't say there wasn't anything OP could do to this beer, but I did give the disclaimer that this beer probably won't turn out like OP wanted. I'm not against trying creative solutions outside of convention, but the scientific principles are still limiting the success that we can expect. I've added dry hops to two different under-hopped beers in my 8 years of brewing. Neither time did they turn out remotely good. I ended up with a sweet, but grassy beer both times. I knew that the chemistry wasn't on my side, but I tried it anyway - twice. That was enough. Saving the current beer is desirable, but not the most important thing here. Knowing what went wrong, how to avoid in the future, and what, if anything, can be done about the beer in the carboy are all items to address.

I cannot, nor will not, ever advise anyone to "fix" an off balanced sweet beer by dry hopping. You will end up with something different, but better? Not sure. In my experience, I would've rather had the initial sweet beer rather than the dry hopped after effect.

So, we know the facts, we've heard some opinions, what ultimately do I recommend? If you are insistent on adding bitterness, I would make a hop tea, or hop tincture and add that to the beer in small increments until you are satisfied. Would I personally do that? No. I would identify my mistake(s) and try again, meanwhile letting this beer sit at room temp in hopes for more attenuation and just maybe a little better balance.

So, yes, essentially, agree to disagree. I guess we'll have to let the OP decide.

Cheers! :mug:
 
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