Doing a multi-step infusion mash Hefe this weekend - question

[Rev2010]

So this weekend I plan to do a multi-step infusion mash hefeweizen for the first time. My plan was to mash in at the first rest temp, then drain a gallon or so and heat it to the appropriate temperature to bring the mash up to the next step. To calculate the temp I would use the brew calculator I have in Brewzor on my Android phone. I would check the temp of the grain in the mash tun and input the numbers into the calculator and then raise the wort to the temp recommended and add it back into the mash and do the rest. I would then repeat the process for the next step.

Not doing a decoction just yet but I was simply wondering if there's anything wrong with this process. I am mashing in a Rubbermaid cooler so I can't apply direct heat so this seemed to be the most logical way to go about this. Only reason I am asking is to see if there is any problem with draining and leaving the grains to sit in only the water/wort they've absorbed. I would imagine heating the drained wort to the desired temp would be pretty quick. I can't see any reason why it would be an issue but this is my first multi-step infusion so I just wanted to be on the safe side. Thanks for any info you guys can lend. Oh, and yeah I know... why not just decoct if I'm going to heat the wort anyway? The reason is primarily because I am going to use my brew kettle to do so and don't want to have to clear out any left over grain. I'm taking this slow and in steps so this is my first way of going about it.


Rev.

 

[shivalotus]

The big danger is that you will denature the enzymes. The liquid portion of the mash is where the enzymes do their business. That is the reason you'll see decoction instructions that have you pull thick with the exception of your mash out.

 

[kyleobie]

What steps are you looking to do? I've done an infusion mash with a feurlic acid rest, then mashed without sparge out and it worked well.

 

[seabass07]

+1 on the decoction. It would be much easier to scoop out grain and boil it than to drain it from the mash IMO. And as was mentioned, the enzymes are the reason that you don't drain the liquid for infusions. And for good measure, give your decoctions a 10 min rest at around 150 before boiling.

 

[Rev2010]

Crap. forgot about denaturing the enzymes. Pulling a gallon or a gallon and a half would definitely require heating to 200 or higher. Damn it, good thing I posted about this. The steps I'm doing are a protein rest at 122, a beta sacch rest at 149 and an alpha sacch rest at 158 - basically Northern's hefe recipe steps but my own recipe.

Guess I'll have to do a double decoction then? I've never done one before but have read up on it and watched some videos. I know to rest the pulled decoction first. You mention to rest at 150, basically my beta rest temp, is that still the recommended or is there an alpha rest needed too before boiling?

Last two things, I gathered that you add a little of the decoction back at a time until you hit the rest temp you want and whatever is left in the kettle you leave to cool down to the same temp then add it back, is this correct? Second, do I just pull the grains for the decoction or do I need to add a bit of wort - like maybe a half inch of wort above the grains or something?


Rev.

 

[Begin2Brew]

I haven't done a decoction on a hefe yet but have done them on all my Oktoberfests and Vienna lagers. I only rest at 150F but I don't see why you couldn't rest at the 149F and 158F then boil. Beersmith does a pretty good job on calculating the decoction volume to hit the correct temp. I'll typically add an extra quart or so just to be sure I am not low on temp when I add it back to the mash. I always try to grab the thickest part of the mash.

 

[knocknheads]

I, too, use the 10 gal rubbermaid cooler for my mash. I've only done a step mash once and that was with a hefe. I just boiled enough water to add to mash, about a gallon, to jump from 122 to 148, then boiled another gallon to get to rest temp of 158.

I'm a complete noob so I didn't see what the harm could be in doing it this way. I missed my gravity reading by only a couple hundreths and the beer tastes great.

I'll be doing a dunkel this weekend using this same technique. If anyone could advise a why/why not to do it this way I'd appreciate it (not trying to hi-jack thread, just looking for mutual advice

 

[shivalotus]

As I recall on the last dunkelweizen I did, 100 beta glucan, 112 ferulic acid, 134 protein, 152 saccarification. I don't recall times off the top of my head.

 

[kyleobie]

I feel like you can make a decent hefe using a ferulic acid rest and a single step to 152 or so. I forget what my hefe scored using this technique but it was well above 30.

More than that you need a decoction to get it just right for the reasons mentioned above. Just my two cents.

 

[Rev2010]

OK, so the decoction calcs in Beersmith and Brewzor both give the same results. If I start the mash at 122 with 3 gallons of water I then need to pull a 1.1 gallon decoction to get to 149. Then, to go to 158 I need to pull basically a half gallon decoction. Sound good? Seems this should be easy enough. I was also figuring on boiling the decoction for only 10 minutes, which is the shortest boil I see listed and is more for lighter colored beers. This fine? Sorry for all the questions.


Rev.

 

[shivalotus]

10 minutes is on target for a paler beer.

Welcome to the decoction madness.

 

[Rev2010]

10 minutes is on target for a paler beer.

Welcome to the decoction madness.

Thanks! The latest thing wrecking my brain is my protein rest at 122 is going to be 20 minutes long. Of course it will take a few minutes to get the decoction to a 150 rest (for 10 minutes or so) then on to boiling. When do I pull this decoction? lol. Do I pull it immediately after adding the grains or do I let it at least protein rest for 10 minutes then pull it? And do I just let the mash sit at protein rest that much longer until the decoction is ready to be added back? Seems like the biggest thing to work out is the scheduling for all this.

The latter addition shouldn't be that big a deal as my other rests are 30 minutes long. So I figure I can pull the second decoction after it's rested for 10 minutes. It's just the first one I'm curious about.


Rev.

 

[shivalotus]

I allow my rest time to pass and then pull.

 

[Rev2010]

I allow my rest time to pass and then pull.

Thanks. I actually thought about it and decided I am going to protein rest in 2 gallons of water than add 1 gallon adjustment water to hit 147. I will hold there for 30 minutes during which time, at 10 minutes in, I will pull the first decoction and boil it for 10 minutes. I will pull the last decoction for mash out. Just seems a bit easier and more spaced time wise this way.


Rev.

 

[shivalotus]

Good luck!

 

[Rev2010]

So I missed all my temps for some reason even though I followed the calcs. Protein rest came in too high at 125, probably not a big deal. Seriously missed my 147 beta rest with 139. And missed my 158 sacch rest and got 152. Decocted twice and sparge went fine. Main thing that's worrying me now is the wort in the sight level gauge looks quite light - last time it looked this light I got 56% efficiency and had go adjust with DME. But we'll see after I take an OG reading. It's rising toward a boil now.


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

OK well the numbers are in. I got an OG of 1.054 when the expected OG at 75% efficiency was 1.051. So, according to Beersmith that seems to indicate a 79% efficiency, better than I had expected. Wonder how it will come out with such differences in mash temp numbers. I'm thinking it will be fine, though I would've liked the sacch rest higher for a sweeter beer, but looking at how a single infusion is often listed at 152 for a hefe I guess it shouldn't be too bad Oh, and the color looked great in the hydro so I have to learn to ignore the look in the sight level gauge on my kettle lol.


Rev.

 

[ChillWill]

One of the brewers from work just returned from a trip to the US west coast, had a decocted hefe and said it was the best he'd had.

Think I'm going to have a go at one! I did a single step infusion (152f) hefe a while ago and it was really good, although lacking a little body/depth compared to what we do at work. Aromatics and carbonation were spot on though.

Still got washed wlp300 saved to use. Might pencil it in after a delirium tremens clone I'm doing tomorrow.

 

[shivalotus]

Rev
Let us know how it comes out.

 

[OldWorld]

If you are using a basic American ale yeast or American Ale yeast I wouldn't worry too much about the process. It also depends on the amount of base malt. If you are using a lot of two row then worrying about enzymes could be moot point.

I'd go for the gusto and do a triple decotion mash with 3068 yeast...It will be authentic and delectable...No sense in brewing a beer that is gonna taste like commercial garb

 

[Rev2010]

If you are using a basic American ale yeast or American Ale yeast I wouldn't worry too much about the process. It also depends on the amount of base malt. If you are using a lot of two row then worrying about enzymes could be moot point

I'm not that dopey I used 6lbs of Weyermann Pale Wheat, 2lbs Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner malt, and 1lb Vienna Malt. For the yeast I used Wyeast 3068, which I like a lot but lately have been using a lot of 3638 which I find is closer to a Franziskaner taste. However, the 3638 doesn't usually create as much banana taste so I went with the 3068 on this one.


Rev.

 

[OneManBrewery]

I'm about to pull this in a Hefe recipe I got coming in about a week. Will be my first decoction as well, so any pointers you got from your experience please pass them on. Good to see you surpassed your OG

 

[mcbethenstein]

I always have trouble with mash temps with smaller batches. If you only had 2 gal of water and your grain in there at first, that's a lot of empty headspace... The few times I've tried 3-gal batches in my 5-gal Rubbermaid cooler I was WAY under on my temps as well. I'm pretty sure the heat is lost much more quickly with the large amount of headspace, then once you are low, you either need to add more boiling water or increase the size of your decoction.... I often pull a little extra to account for boil off on my decoctions. Oh well, you will be happy with a decocted hefe... So worth the extra trouble.

 

[Rev2010]

If you only had 2 gal of water and your grain in there at first, that's a lot of empty headspace... The few times I've tried 3-gal batches in my 5-gal Rubbermaid cooler I was WAY under on my temps as well.

It wasn't the headspace. I've never had problems hitting and maintaining my mash temps with single infusion batches. I mash in with 1.25 quart per pound of grain so since most of my grain bills are between 9 and 10lbs so far thats about 3 gallons or so. Everything has been great, I only lose 1-2 degrees over an hour long mash and that's with opening it twice to stir it up.

As mentioned I came in too high with the 2 gallons. It was intentionally thick since I wanted to get to the second step more easily, so to do so I added 1 gallon of boiling water, guess it wasn't enough to hit the temp I was going for. After that I followed the calculators decoction volume but still didn't hit my temps going in.

So the issue wasn't losing temp in the cooler, it was not getting the temps with the infusion/decoction volumes the calc told me.


Rev.

 

[shivalotus]

Like any process it will get easier and better with repetition. My calculation came out on the low side to start and I've corrected my process to account for it.

 

[ChillWill]

Seems like a fairly good effort!

I did a step mash today on a all pils & sugar recipe and got much higher efficiency than I'm used to. Can't wait to try a decoction, I think I'll a) have the mash in a pot so I can add extra heat if I don't hit my temps and b) start of thick and have some near boiling water on hand should it need a bit of help.

I used the pot today to add heat and my arm ached so much while adding heat (didn't want scorching or 200F grains on the bottom and 130F grains on top haha... got my buddy to stir a bit (I think that has earned him a bottle).

 

[Rev2010]

I used the pot today to add heat and my arm ached so much while adding heat (didn't want scorching or 200F grains on the bottom and 130F grains on top haha... got my buddy to stir a bit (I think that has earned him a bottle).

Ha, yeah yesterday I found nearly constantly stirring the decoction was quite tiring. If I had a choice I would get another brew kettle with false bottom to mash on the stove for multi-step recipes but as mentioned I can't do so because the mother-in-law (we live on the first floor) has a freakin' cow anytime she smells heated grains in beer making I told my wife I'm going to make some authentic German pretzels and I guarantee she'll call asking if I'm making beer. Seriously want my own house at this point.


Rev.